Early Firmware and EScribe Suite Discussion Thread

[LeeWB3]

15 hours ago, James said:

The Cold Ohms should be more accurate in SP24. (What kind of mod resistance do you have now, out of curiosity?)

That said, is your non-preheat power sufficient to make it to 500F? Preheat is not meant to hold a temperature perfectly, it is meant to get the coil and wicking up to around the liquid boiling point. (Preheat backs off as it nears its target temperature.) It doesn't make much sense to have preheat temperature up near the vaping range IMO. If it preheats to the liquid boiling point, that's ideal, since beyond that the mass flow rate of the vape will be largely controlled by the power setpoint.

I have my VapeDroid X1D2 and HCigar VT75c with me and they are now set at 0.0084 and 0.0061, respectively.  My recollection is that my two MKM BAR V3s are set at about 0.008 as well.  That's determined by taking 6 atomizers (including one with just Kanthal), measuring their "Kanthal" ohms with the Hobo, measuring the "Raw" ohms with the device under test and calculating a mod resistance that minimizes the total % error.  To confirm I then locked those resistances on a profile each on the Hobo and on the device under test and used Device Manager to compare vape temps reached while setup with wattage low enough I was not limited by set temp.  The resulting charts matched up quite well.

My pre-heat is definitely sufficient to reach the pre-heat temp.  Using like 60W on an atomizer that needs about 30 to reach set temp once warm.

I am certainly aware of how pre-heat settings have been used and thought of in the past.  However, upon Evolv's introduction of the 75c, I have found an even better use for it.  I now use preheat to bring me to the temp I want most of my puff to be at and use a reasonably elevated wattage to get there quickly.  The chip is then really good about throttling power to simply maintain that temp right up until the wattage is decreased down to a minimum set value (aka the set power).  At that point the unit allows the temperature to creep up as it needs to in order to maintain that minimum wattage right up until/unless the chip has to further limit power in order not to give me a dry hit or go uncomfortably hot.  I find this is vastly better for me because I had previously found that long puffs at the temp I wanted to vape at could result in the last of the inhalation to feel cool as vapor production died off with low throttled wattages.  Now it "fails to hotter" while still preventing me from getting too hot rather than just "throttles to cooler".  This is certainly less power efficient, but MUCH more satisfying and consistent to me.

Edited July 31, 2017 by LeeWB3

[Dejay]

Wow LeeWB3 that is a cool way to measure resistance. Nice to see people take temp control seriously

That "boost" near the end sounds like a creative use of features too. I don't have that problems because I only take short tokes but I just had to say something!

[mactavish]

I'll be able to offer some Mac input when it's capable of reading a DNA75. While I plan on buying a COLOR mod, right now all I've seen are two main companies producing them, neither of which I care for. 

[LeeWB3]

2 hours ago, Dejay said:

Wow LeeWB3 that is a cool way to measure resistance. Nice to see people take temp control seriously

Only works if you have something you consider "standards" quality.  Would be better if I had a few thousand dollars of reference equipment to measure atomizers down to the ten thousands of an ohm....

[Dejay]

Honestly my Griffin on a Triad DNA200 has much bigger fluctuations in normal use. The best addition to EScribe was the ability to change temp on the fly with the +/- buttons.

[LeeWB3]

7 minutes ago, Dejay said:

Honestly my Griffin on a Triad DNA200 has much bigger fluctuations in normal use. The best addition to EScribe was the ability to change temp on the fly with the +/- buttons.

You need 0.0001-0.0002 during calibration to be accurate to 0.001 in use (rounding errors).

There are clearly different levels of stability in atomizers, both in terms of how much they vary in cold and warm ohms.  In my experience a Griffin is not as stable an atomizer for TC as some due to the velocity posts - they almost always expose the upper outside leg which allows it to heat at a different rate than the average of the coil.  However, properly cooled with good, stable connections you should be able to get +/- 0.002 for cold ohms.

[James]

I've posted up EScribe Suite 2.0 SP5.1 as an early release.

Most of the fixes are for the Mac version, but it does correct temperature instability on some low-resistance Stainless coils (75 Color).

[67exec]

What are you calling low resistance? I'm having issues with my 2 late in v5's one clone one original. Original has .655 316l spaced 28g. Clone has .766 316l spaced 28g. Neither give problems on dna250 or dna60

[LeeWB3]

James - Latest version is still not actually going to pre-heat temperature.  It is proportional, so setting pre-heat at 430 hits a lower number (415) than setting at 460 (437).  This is on a VapeDroid X1C2 with a Skyline with 6 wrap 0.6mm SSV coil.  Settings for this trace are 27.5W / 480°F / 60W pre-heat / 460°F:

 

Edited August 4, 2017 by LeeWB3
Adding mod, RTA and coil.

[Frank65]

Hi

Any difference between SP5.1 and SP5.1c ..?

[John]

Lee, you have to have your power setpoint at or above where the coil wants to run to be running temperature controlled. As is you are running wattage controlled with an extra (permanent) boost from the preheat. 

If you set your wattage to 60 or so, you'll hold temperature. 

[Willy]

I know a few folks who, as I do in tc, set the watts much high then what we use and let the board control it. I have never had one of my dozen mods (60, 75 and 200's) fall out of tc and I haven't not heard of anyone else having one drop out, that's how damn good evolv boards work. They are the ONLY boards I'll use, I'll be a customer for life. 

[LeeWB3]

4 hours ago, John said:

Lee, you have to have your power setpoint at or above where the coil wants to run to be running temperature controlled. As is you are running wattage controlled with an extra (permanent) boost from the preheat. 

If you set your wattage to 60 or so, you'll hold temperature. 

I fully understand how the chips worked on DNA 250, 200, 166, 133, 75 and 60s.  As I stated above, however, the DNA 75c works differently.  On the old boards you were limited to a punch that if set too high could easily lead to a "bump" as it cutoff pre-heat power and reduced down to run power.  If sufficiently bad you could feel it come and go.  Here is an example graph of the old system using a VaporShark Vapor Flask DNA 133 with Squape X dual 3mm 8 wraps 0.4 mm SSV 62.5W / 470°F / 100W pre-heat / 10 Punch (it woulda hit temp if I had kept drawing):

So, Evolv did us the favor of adding a pre-heat temp to the chip rather than just a punch.  To make that work correctly they added the ability for the chip to throttle at that set pre-heat temp so it didn't have the little bump as it cut from preheat wattage to run wattage.  So far, so good and that was an improvement.

However, after using a DNA 75c for a while I realized that this had the effect of allowing me to get rid of the single worst thing about temperature control - excessive throttling.  Here is the graph of what to me is an absolutely miserable vape (Hobo X Stab with a Skyline 3mm 8 wraps 0.5 SSV 35W / 470°F / 55W pre-heat / 7 punch:
..

Note that this juice tastes best at 470°F, however, when you apply enough power to get it there it starts throttling from the initial 35W down to 20.3W.  At 20.3W the experienced heat and vapor production has been cut to SUBSTANTIALLY less than when at the 35W level.  It starts off "in your face" and I think "Wow, this is a great vape" and then it feels like someone is taking my cookies away from me as it dies off.

However, this same Skyline setup will not dry hit or get uncomfortably hot until well north of 500 °F.  So, with the new system I can set it up to do THIS on a BAR V3 DNA 75c, same atty and coil, 25W / 500°F / 55W / 470°F:
Notice how it is throttling the pre-heat wattage to maintain the 470°F preheat during about half of the draw.  However, instead of lowering wattage below the set wattage and dying off for the last third it just allows it to get warmer than the pre-heat temp of 470° and start rising to the set temp of 500°F.  It still will prevent dry hits or getting TOO hot by the hard limit (i.e. set temp) of 500°F where it will do the same as current chips and cut power.  I would much rather let it get warmer then the best temp range for flavor (470°F) rather than cut power so much it actually feels cool.  This is why I did not care for early generations of TC and why I've ALWAYS tried to setup my vapes to where they didn't hit set temp until at least two thirds of the way into a puff.

If you like a fairly short puff you will not notice this, but as your puff time increases you will increasing find that TC can pull enough power that you're not getting any vapor or heat.  This prevents that.

 

Edited August 5, 2017 by LeeWB3
Deleted extraneous graphs.

[John]

(I don't post here much, but I am... Intimately... Familiar with what Evolv did.)

This is actually a really clever way to get around the power throttling as you describe it, while still effectively getting an automatic (and adjustable) setpoint and keeping temperature below a hard cutoff. 

This is much closer to how we initially envisioned TC being run (which is why there are both power and temperature limits, rather than just having a temperature setpoint.)

That said, the preheat on a 75C is a proportional control, so if your power setpoint is significantly lower than what you need to maintain your vape, like you have set up here, then you're going to get some steady state error. Your original trace needs about 40W to maintain that profile. The difference between the 27W coming from the power setpoint and the 40W coming from the preheat is being added by the preheat term, and that has steady state error by design (so it doesn't drive the system to overshoot temperature and power.)

So, you're doing everything right, but if you want it to hold closer to the preheat temperature you need more oomph from your main power setpoint. You don't have to crank it up so much that you get blast-and-die-off vapor production though.

Hope that makes sense and helps,

John 

[LeeWB3]

42 minutes ago, John said:

43 minutes ago, John said:

(I don't post here much, but I am... Intimately... Familiar with what Evolv did.)

This is actually a really clever way to get around the power throttling as you describe it, while still effectively getting an automatic (and adjustable) setpoint and keeping temperature below a hard cutoff. 

This is much closer to how we initially envisioned TC being run (which is why there are both power and temperature limits, rather than just having a temperature setpoint.)

That said, the preheat on a 75C is a proportional control, so if your power setpoint is significantly lower than what you need to maintain your vape, like you have set up here, then you're going to get some steady state error. Your original trace needs about 40W to maintain that profile. The difference between the 27W coming from the power setpoint and the 40W coming from the preheat is being added by the preheat term, and that has steady state error by design (so it doesn't drive the system to overshoot temperature and power.)

So, you're doing everything right, but if you want it to hold closer to the preheat temperature you need more oomph from your main power setpoint. You don't have to crank it up so much that you get blast-and-die-off vapor production though.

Hope that makes sense and helps,

John 

Well, that'll still work.  Explains why I can't get it mighty close to what I need as a hard stop cutoff, but I generally want to run at enough less it'll still work.

[Modbustersecig]

I use temp a lot on 200 and 250 your ohms are all over the place your build is .o6 and according to what you post I see readings from .1?? To over .2?? I use titanium myself have my point 09 build jumps over point one I won't even fire it waste of time I could be way off here but just what I see I might also suggest click on the yellow current see how many amps your throwing  

[retird]

@LeeWB3

Been reading this thread.... interesting.....  

Your screenshot in the first example you gave had the power setting set to 27.5 watts and the set point for temperature of 460F was not met. It only achieved about 437.75F.  What happens when you bump that power setting up to 30 watts and what happens when you bump it up again to 35 watts?  The temperature should get closer to your set point of 460F or may even meet that set point and regulate from there.

[LeeWB3]

Here's 30W and 35W back to back.  I hit pause in between so I could reset it to the other number and place both on one graph.  You can see it's doing exactly what I say I don't like, i.e. dropping off fast at the end of the vape.  I'll say, however that this is a Skyline and wicks on this RTA fail fast.  It's still working OK at 27.5, but not as good as graph above.  Let me rewick it and repost.

Edited August 7, 2017 by LeeWB3

[LeeWB3]

OK, here's a better comparison (how do I delete a post?!).  New wick, chain vaped (which I do) to where it's no longer saturated from initial wetting of wick and already hot (the graph you referred to came from first puff rather than after hot).  Again pausing between each puff to reset wattage upward and changed scale from 15s to 35s to fit all three puffs.  With a new wick like this 27.5W is still fine and it'd even be OK for me at 30W - see it easing up at end?  But 35W is doing what I say I don't like.  Within the first or certainly by second tank on this skyline (at least with my wicking) I'd have to drop back to the 27.5W to get what I'm getting at 30W here.  It'll then maintain that through ~10 tanks before needing rewicking or lowering wattage further.

[LeeWB3]

On 8/5/2017 at 0:12 PM, Modbustersecig said:

I use temp a lot on 200 and 250 your ohms are all over the place your build is .o6 and according to what you post I see readings from .1?? To over .2?? I use titanium myself have my point 09 build jumps over point one I won't even fire it waste of time I could be way off here but just what I see I might also suggest click on the yellow current see how many amps your throwing  

Is this addressed to me?  Amps are generally in the 9-15 range except for very brief period at start.  Am using VTC6 batteries.

I gave the builds (but not the cold ohms) on everything but the original VapeDroid X1D2 with Skyline.  For the record, that one is 6 3mm wraps of 0.6mm SSV ohming out on that mod to 0.146-0.147 cold.  To repeat what was in the post with multiple graphs, the VaporShark Vape Flask 133 with a Squape X had dual 8 3mm wraps of 0.4mm SSV ohming out on that mod to 0.201.  The second Skyline I have had 8 3mm wraps of 0.5mm SSV ohming out to 0.247 on the Hobo X and 0.257 on the BAR V3 DNA75c.  Note that Evolv is working hard on fixing cold ohm readings on the 75c chips, but there is still some discrepancies and non-linearities, i.e. it can be calibrated right to the Hobo at one particular ohm and read different than the Hobo at a different ohm - it has been improving on most of the recent firmwares.  Currently having 4 of the 75c mods from 3 different manufacturers, I do believe the 75c mods appear to be consistent between themselves even if they aren't always consistent with the Hobo.

Also you probably ain't running a 0.09 ohm TI build on a DNA 75c (not really enough power for that), but if you are you might want to know that there currently appears to be real problems with the consistency of cold ohm readings down at 0.1 and below.

Edited August 7, 2017 by LeeWB3

[67exec]

I have cold ohm probs on all of my tanks that have ss316l. Some with factory coils, and some with coils I build. I've done builds from .15 all the way to 2ohms and have trouble with all compared to my dna250's and my dna60

[John]

Are you reading high or low for cold ohms? Also, is your 75C theme using cold ohms, or cold ohms at 70F, which we just exposed in SP 25? The reason I ask is all the previous DNAs display the 70F cold ohms by default, whereas the 75C displays the raw sampled cold ohms. So it isn't exactly apples-to-apples unless you happen to be at 70 degrees ambient with good case thermals. 

If you are letting the device do all the work, then the two are functionally equivalent. However, if you are using the 75C's ability to manually adjust the ohms, especially if you are manually adjusting them to match the measurement from a 250, then it is important that the theme be using the newly exposed 70F field. 

 

 

[TonyB]

I'm running the very latest version SP25 on a new SVA DNA75c. What statistics are supposed to be re- set with that function set up as it doesn't appear to be doing anything. Can't seem to re-set any of the puff info either.

I've been tweaking the installed theme that came with the mod, but there are a couple do things that don't seem correct - Changing the temp the up/ down buttons are crossed to hitting what should be down (lower) actually raises the temp setting, same with power on the main screen. But on the Pre-Heat Punch screen adjusting the temp works the correct way.

[retird]

Can you save the ecig file to your computer an then post the ecig file here?  Someone will help you but it will be easier if they could see your ecig file to see what needs to be done in the theme and ecig file... 

[James]

I've posted SP5.2. Mostly I've fixed bugs on the MacOS version, but a few of them affect Windows as well. No new firmware Service Pack just yet.