Feature request - swap Temperature with Watts on screen and controls

[blueridgedog]

Interesting.  Some use temp as a not to exceed.  Some use watts.  I think it is build dependent as I have had some amazing builds on drippers that you would want to ratchet down the watts to get less vapor.  For tanks though I have always let the temp be the controller as the juice flow is less.

The idea of making SCRUM input open is cool.  I have not coded in a long time and my IT work pre-dated it.

[valld]

Nick said:

This seems like a swell idea! I'll go ahead and throw it into the ring for possible future Development.

Thanks Nick, for appreciating our suggestions. I can imagine how many new ideas/ requests you guys have to assess and put on the scale. People are different and have different approaches to the same issues, especially in the vaping world and the not yet settled Temperature Control/ Temperature Limiting related ones. You made a great product, but you also put a big weight on your shoulders with giving us the options to customize and tinker options, screens and features. Because we are getting spoiled and we will always want more 

[flem]

valld said:

[QUOTE=Nick]This seems like a swell idea! I'll go ahead and throw it into the ring for possible future Development.

Thanks Nick, for appreciating our suggestions. I can imagine how many new ideas/ requests you guys have to assess and put on the scale. People are different and have different approaches to the same issues, especially in the vaping world and the not yet settled Temperature Control/ Temperature Limiting related ones. You made a great product, but you also put a big weight on your shoulders with giving us the options to customize and tinker options, screens and features. Because we are getting spoiled and we will always want more [/QUOTE]

I will second that!

[iCGM]

I'd really love that instead off having lock to change temp, power lock instead, and 2 click - would allow changing temp. 2 click + changes profile so this would be much easier to get to without wearing out the fire button as it's the most used button.

[nicovape]

I would also prefer to set the temp on the main screen instead of watts. But i suppose this will not be added until a long time.. there are a lot of small changes that would be nice. 
Such a feature is probably very easy to implement.. which is the sad part.

I wonder if any new firmware / escribe is going to be released soon.. Been a while.

[350ZMO]

I'm in the both-option-not only camp.

Although the 200 seems smoother for whatever reason, I still get the best vape experience when I set watts just under the setting at which TP kicks in. EG right now on a .18 NI200 build in a GT2 and set Temp to 360F power to 24W on this build and juice shows real time temp fluctuating around 300F. Then set 200W and temp to 280F, 290F...320F respectively keeping everything else the same. Try it with your numbers and see which you prefer.

Not saying why. Not saying good or bad. I will just say I find the vape experience in real life practice is different and different people will prefer different things and that's just peachy.

If you haven't tried this test then I suggest trying it to decide which you like. One test is worth a thousand opinions but you wont know which you like until you try them.

Then try it with different attys to see if your preference changes.

Many valid reasons to pick either method.

When these devices give me the same vape experience in real life practice with either method and all my attys, then it won't matter. Until then, it matters to me.

[VapingBad]

After watching this (35 mins) many people will see this feature as making it too complicated if it is a default, no reason it should be an option for enthusiasts, but as it is you can just set the temp and hand it to your grandpa telling him just use up, down and fire and stick to Kanthal, Nichrome & Ni200 coils it is a very easy device to use.
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csOQTYEht5I[/video]

[Dejay]

I would absolutely love this feature. I want to experiment more with temperature to find a sweet spot but as it is I'm often too lazy to play around with it. Please add it soon - it's the one feature I'm really missing from the amazing DNA 200!

The somewhat "religious war" around the question if we vape temperature controlled or temperature limited is a little bit amusing I think one reason why some people like "TL" and set watts low is to create a slowly heating vape. Me I just want full on vapor instantly. But if you set wattage low then you also have to disable pre-heat? Else I don't see how it makes a big difference since the pre heat boosts the watts anyways to reach temperature asap.

I'd love if someone who prefers this TL style would post two screenshots of the vaping / temperature / power graph of the device monitor. I'm genuinely curious!

BTW I think temp control makes vaping actually easier to set up for grandmas. Just set to 420°F and done.

[VapingBad]

"religious war" bit OTT.

Both ways ultimatly adjust power, I keep the temp set for flavour, but am usually at the temp limit because my ADV is a genny, but on a dripper with more room and airflow I still keep at the same temp and adjust the watts & airflow.  And I always have the preheat punch at max normally for 1.5 seconds, 200 W on cotton, but anywhere between 80 W and 150 W on gennnies as until the mesh oxidises more with age you are at risk of shorts and on some builds you can burn through a leg at 200 W.

This has pre heat 100W, punch 11, time limit 1.5 s, time scale 10 sec.
 

 

ETA the pre-heat is even more important/effective running below the temp limit than running at temp.

No pre-heat needed running at temp, pre-heat turned off just using the temp limit to control everything which is fine, just addressing the previous posters point on pre-heat.
 

[blueridgedog]

VapingBad:  I finally have an atomizer that I have to use in the mode you cover...the new Aromamizer...nice tank.  Not one you want to attempt to adjust with temp settings.

[Dejay]

Thanks @VapingBad for posting the graphs!

And sorry lol but there are some discussions where some people correct other people saying that the DNA only does temperature limiting and not temperature control and that it's totally wrong one way or another. Not trying to start something here but trying to understand! And imho your graph shows that the DNA can do both and that they are different. 

Those graphs seem to show that the temperature "reacts" to how you vape. So if you draw a bit slower the temp gets hotter and if you draw more forcefully the temp gets lower and you get those bumps in the temp curve. That means it should be a different experience. Maybe the difference between a more "organic" vape (Temperature limiting - vaping on a glowing ember) or vaping more digital (temperature control - vaping on a high tech machine). This might also depend on how homogeneously the atomizer's chimney and drip top you are using is cooling the vapor.

PS: Of course I still very much prefer the temperature control approach and would love an option to change temp with + and - buttons directly

[VapingBad]

Thanks
I say temp limiting as it only technically limits the max temp, maybe being pedantic, but in my line of work being loose with technical terms can cause mistakes through miscommunication and being precise is part of the discipline. I often vape on the limit at a constant temp, I just don't use the temp to adjust vapour production as I match the temp to the liquid I use for flavour.

[stuartro]

I, too, would like to be able to control temperature (instead of power) without having to lock, press and hold + and -, adjust temperature, and then unlock again.

In TC "mode" (yes, I know there are no distinct "modes"), it makes sense (to me, at least) to have the + and - buttons adjust temperature, and have the "lock, hold + and -" thing adjust power. While when running in non TC "mode" have the + and - buttons adjust power.

[Margucci]

semantics aside, this proposed change seems like a no brainer. there should be a way to not only change the power but also the temperature from the device itself. i know that depending on the juice i am using to like to change both. i personally dont know why evolv stuck with the same UI (essentially) as the DNA40. with all the added potential of the 200 even something like a limited menu based UI should have been a given. or perhaps bluetooth with a phone app in a future v2 chip release so we can change things on the go.

stuartro said:

In TC "mode" (yes, I know there are no distinct "modes"), it makes sense (to me, at least) to have the + and - buttons adjust temperature, and have the "lock, hold + and -" thing adjust power. While when running in non TC "mode" have the + and - buttons adjust power.

that is an amazing idea. 

[lewisss]

just going to throw my two penneth in!

I started the other thread asking for this feature , and I never asked for it to be a default.
just to have the option to change it!.

I am almost exclusively using SS on a dripper and I have noticed a strange anomaly with this material.

brand new coil and 320 F at 60 W is about right, after a few puffs i need to increase the temp

to 380 to get the same experience.

after a day 400 at 60w gives the same vape and after a few days it requires 420-440F again at 60 w

Now changing the power does not affect the vape as normally the temp control will limit the power any way.

during this time the resistance of the coil remains constant.

SO my theory is that SS (or at least the one i am using) actually changes its heat coeficient the more times it is heated and cooled. 

therefore I would like to again say that the OPTION to have Temp as the easiest one to change and the main display would be a good idea.


My next post here is going to be controversial!

[lewisss]

Bapgood said:

How I recall it being explained to me is:


Short Version:

Temperature = Flavor
Wattage = Vapor


Longer Version:

You wan't to set your temp to where your juice vaporizes to your liking. Juice will vaporize at a specific temperature based on its makeup, once it hits that temp adjusting the temp higher can change the taste of the juice and etc. up until the temp the juice turns nasty and harmful. VG and PG vaporize at different temps so there is not really one temp that works for every juice or even a temp that everyone prefers with the same juice. Personal preferences are always different as are builds and etc.

Then wattage can be used to adjust the amount of vapor that is produced. Higher wattage = more vapor....lower = less.

However it has been my experience that it is difficult to build a setup to efficiently achieve this. There are many variables in a setup that can effect all of this and right now I think the TC tech is further ahead of atomizer tech which can not properly take advantage. So right now we basically find a build to suit our liking and adjust both temp and wattage to maximize the build/setup based on our preferences. Slight adjustments can be made with temp and wattage to fine tune, however larger changes are made by changing the build/setup.

I think whoever explained this to you may have done it before the dna200 board.

I like things to be logical . so here is how i see it:-
complicated version

more vapor can only be produced with more power IF and only IF you do not have enough power set initially to maintain the coil at a set temperature.

If you have power set so that once the preheat hits and the target temperature is reached. no matter how much you increase the power you will not get more vapour as the device WILL NOT put that power into the coil as the temperature setting will always adjust the power to keep at the same temp!

below i have a pic from device monitor, the first puff is at 100w and the second is at 60W

as you can see the power delivery is almost identical {so was the amount of vapour)......Why?

because the power curve that was sent to the coil was identical irrespective of power set!


Simple version:-

when using temperature control there is only one constant setting...............temperature!
everything else is a variable in relation to the temperature set!

ie. when you set the temperature  and hit the fire button the temperature goes to and stays at the set temperature.
when you set power and hit the fire button with preheat it exceeds your power setting and when the temperature hits target it is way below your power setting.


conclusion.
I think the power adjustment belongs in the world of regulated non tc mods where i agree more power more vapour!

the only purpose of using power on a tc device is to lower the power to where the coil never quite reaches temperature ( which I have used to great effect. see my posts on SS) which can give a more consistent vape especially with SS.

[Margucci]

lol that isnt controversial. for anyone who has thought about what is actually happening it is a foregone conclusion. hence, its obvious that while in TC mode the primary adjustment should be temperature (or at least have the option to be). 

[r4nd0m]

Well, from what I see there are two camps here - I would suggest a TC best practices threat to explain how to do it "properly" or "intended" with this device. I have been playing a lot lately and reading this thread explained many things I was experiencing but still keeps questions unanswered which means the instructions aren't clear enough - I don't mind being blamed for being lazy but when searching the web you'll find both camps all the time spaced vs contact coils for NI, Ti, SS or watts vs temperature ... would be nice if the developers would tell people how the device and software has been designed to work best or at least how they intend people to use it with an explanation why ... I can see some points in this thread but again I think a clear explanation would help so people use it how it has been designed and it woods as expected ... This surely would open up the conversation for comments and hopefully will be helpful for all of us. Just a friendly comment ... with regards to scrum do it, we do it for quite some time and it has improved the ability to introduce new features much quicker - agile development is anyhow better especially if you are able to release feature builds vs full builds that require full QA ...

[lewisss]

r4nd0m said:

Well, from what I see there are two camps here - I would suggest a TC best practices threat to explain how to do it "properly" or "intended" with this device. I have been playing a lot lately and reading this thread explained many things I was experiencing but still keeps questions unanswered which means the instructions aren't clear enough - I don't mind being blamed for being lazy but when searching the web you'll find both camps all the time spaced vs contact coils for NI, Ti, SS or watts vs temperature ... would be nice if the developers would tell people how the device and software has been designed to work best or at least how they intend people to use it with an explanation why ... I can see some points in this thread but again I think a clear explanation would help so people use it how it has been designed and it woods as expected ... This surely would open up the conversation for comments and hopefully will be helpful for all of us. Just a friendly comment ... with regards to scrum do it, we do it for quite some time and it has improved the ability to introduce new features much quicker - agile development is anyhow better especially if you are able to release feature builds vs full builds that require full QA ...

lol, start a spaced vs contact vs clapton in temperature control thread and i will happily give you my theories on that!

[r4nd0m]

That's not the idea just saying there will always be two camps but as a manufacturer you should be able to clearly state how the device or software you produce should be used and possibly even give some detail with it - helps for sure

[Margucci]

with the power vs temp issue all it takes is some common sense to give you the only correct information:
- preheat phase: the higher the wattage and harder the initial punch as well as vapor production. with a quick ramp up time you will get your initial vapor warmer faster. however, the higher this preheat power is set the shorter this phase is because the coil will reach its intended temperature sooner. this very short phase the power you set rules. 
- vaping phase: after the 0.5-1s preheat phase while your coil gets up to temperature this is obviously dictated by the temperature you set. when the coil approaches and finally reaches the set temperature the power is drastically reduced because it isnt needed in the slightest. it doesnt matter how much higher you set your power there will be no change at all in your vape experience (either vapor production of flavor). 

therefore if you want to be pedantic, you can say that both power and temperature are factors. and while that is technically true the reality says otherwise. if your pull is 4s long you would be lucky if 15-20% of your total vape time is influenced by the wattage set at all. the temperature you have set overwhelmingly dictates the quality of the vape. these are not opinions, they are facts. this is confirmed each and every time you look at the device monitor in escribe. 

HOWEVER, there is one pseudo situation this is not the case. in the event that both your preheat phase and vaping phase power are set at the perfect values so that the coil never quite reaches the set temperature than the vape is completely dictated by power. the reason why i call this is pseudo situation is because you are not actually using temperature control at all. through sheer dumb luck or a lot of trial and error you have set your power settings to the exact values so that you create an equilibrium point when the power going into the coil is being fully balanced by the cooling of the juice in the wick as well as the airflow passing by it. this situation is extremely precarious and even small changes in wick saturation, ambient temperature, length of vape, and even suction would upset this equilibrium. essentially in this situation you are self temperature controlling. the end result would be a much slower ramp up time than you would experience if you allowed the mod to temp control. in addition, the equilibrium vape would be nowhere near as consistent. 

[Dejay]

Leswiss I think the idea of "Temperature = Flavor" and "Wattage = Vapor" is NOT that more is more - but that you control flavour with temperature while you control vapor with wattage. I think the analogy is a bit too simple though. And it happened to be John from evolv who used that analogy ^^ in an early DNA 40 PBusardo interview / video  

But the two graphs that VapingBad posted show that it could well be a different experience. I think sensory experience is often tied to changes in stimuli a slowly increasing temperature might just feel more powerful to someone who is sensitive enough. So there is no "best practice" - whatever works for you

I could also imagine a "reactive temperature mode" similar to stoking a fire with increased air. Basically if you draw slowly the mod reaches temperature with few watts but if you draw harder you need more power but also the mod increases the temperature by a few degrees as well and gives even more power. Similar to how a cigarette glows more intensely when you draw harder on it. You could control it very easily and in an analog way by changing your draw. This is just a crazy idea of course!!! But it might just be a new interesting vaping experience!


BTW about your observation about SS temperature coefficient I noticed something similar. After measuring and setting my mod resistance I got ~88W sustained power at 440°F - now I'm getting much less - about 28W sustained @ 440°F! While having the same resistance. Could be lots of different things like maybe contact resistance or a fluke. Or I need to rewick. I use 316L stainless steel.

[VapingBad]

As I first posted I have no objection to this as an option, but a lot of posts make three large assumptions to support the conjecture that wattage control in temp limited operation is redundant:
1)  That everyone builds coils that do not have any head room, more contact area between the coil and wick will produce more vapour at a given temp and are an important part of the mix. If they cannot and not all atomisers have enough room to do this then you have to increase the temp to increase the vapour.  You can have a coil with more area and adjust the amount of vapour using wattage and staying below the temperature and this does not affect the perceived warmth of the vape that is more to do with density (latent energy).
2)  That everyone automatically sets the watts above what a they need so will always hit the temp limit.
3)  That everyone just wants to vape at an exact temp and just adjust that temp as opposed to vaping an amount of vapour up to a temp.

Also pre-heat is far less important when you just set the wattage high as you have already set it up to get to temp ASAP the pre-heat settings are now almost redundant operating like this.

As for "Temperature = Flavor" and "Wattage = Vapor" it is as relevant as it always was, you can max the watts on the DNA40 just like the 200 and IMO what influences the flavour most is the max temp the liquid is cooked at in the wick before it vaporises.  We all see the colour change in the liquid from the chemical reactions taking place triggered by temperature and that will affect the flavour. The mechanism for the temperature limiting is changing the watts, so the adjustment of watts dose have an effect, but on it's own it cannot adjust flavour. So IMO anyway "Temperature = Flavor" and "Wattage = Vapor" is a good analogy, although limited because it leaves out other important factors like contact area between wick and coil (how well the heat is spread out) and airflow.  And is why I don't like to adjust the flavour setting once I have found the sweet spot for the liquid YMMV.

The DNA200 datasheet says:

Because wattage, not temperature controls vapor volume, large vapor volumes can be produced without unnecessarily high temperatures. Temperature Protection is most helpful if the atomizer begins to dry out, the user pauses during a puff, the beginning or end of the puff, or if the wattage setting is in appropriate for the attached atomizer.

Each to their own and they are just 2 ways of doing the same thing at the end of the day, both make sense and both work.  I hope Evolv do implement this as an option soon as it is getting boring.

[Mad Scientist]

I have a new mantra. Increasing applied power increases temperature; increasing temp setting increases applied power lol. I think it's silly that an unfortunate comment in a pbusardo interview has "evolved" into a religious doctrine. That said, having used a mod that had only a temp setting without being able to limit power, I don't like that method. Temp control is generally very accurate but the technology is still far from perfect. We definitely need the ability to set limits on both temp and power. The only issue is some prefer to adjust one more frequently than the other. The present UI state machine does not take that difference in preference into account. It will likely be a pain but evolv needs to change the UI state machine to be table driven and allow us as users to modify the table, or at least allow us to modify some entries in it.

[VapingBad]

TBH I think it started from people using mods without pre-heat to speed up heating time, a bit like the "thou shalt use res lock" mantra they were originally ways of getting around the short comings of other devices.  Again nothing wrong if that's how you like to do it.