wintergreen Posted May 31, 2017 Report Share Posted May 31, 2017 Im hoping I have missed something very simple with my new Therion 75c. I have found no matter which atty I screw onto the mod it reads the cold ohms lower than all my other DNA devices. If I screw on an atty with a ,5 ohm build it reads as .45 ohm. I have tried calibrating the device using a copper calibration tool but no matter what I change the values too it is consistently giving me a low reading. Builds which read consistent on my other devices are way too low on the 75c and I am finding I have to manually enter the value or turn up the temp by 20 degrees C or more to get the same vape. Can anybody help with where I might be going wrong. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayneo Posted May 31, 2017 Report Share Posted May 31, 2017 Can you do a File - Save as, and post a copy of your ecig file. And what did you settle at for your mod resistance value? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wintergreen Posted May 31, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2017 Thanks for the reply. I have attached the ecig file. The mod resistance is set to .004, I have tried ..002, .003 but it doesn't seem to make any difference. the cold ohms reading always seems too low compared to my dozen or so other DNA devices. therion 75c x1.ecig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retird Posted May 31, 2017 Report Share Posted May 31, 2017 Have you ran Case Analyzer on this one? Looks like the Thermals are the default settings... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wintergreen Posted May 31, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2017 That's the only thing I haven't tried yet. I wont have chance to do that until later today, Would the case thermals cause such a big difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giz_60 Posted May 31, 2017 Report Share Posted May 31, 2017 Seems that on your profiles in the General tab, profile 1 & 3, you have the cold ohms interpolating at 85F & 89F respectively...you might try lowering this to a temp closer to your actual room ambient temp...The older DNA boards were preset at 70F Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayneo Posted May 31, 2017 Report Share Posted May 31, 2017 @wintergreen Is that the original .ecig file straight from Lost Vape, and before you checked your own mod resistance do you remember what it was set at. Not that it relates to your issue, but it's good for us to know if they're shipping these out with just the Evolv standard. It's not available on their website yet, so I couldn't check myself. Doing your own thermals will take around 3-4 hours, but it'll just run and you don't need to watch it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted May 31, 2017 Report Share Posted May 31, 2017 What is your actual room temperature, and what Cold Temperature does the DNA Color show? If it is overpredicting your room temperature, that would certainly cause the vape to be colder. (Cold Temperature is the temperature at which the Cold Ohms measurement is taken.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wintergreen Posted June 1, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2017 The internal resistance was set to 0.004 when it was new, I tried running the Case Analyser last night when I got in from work but I couldn't upload the results to the device. I got an error message which I have attached. Sorry I don't mean to disappear again but wont be bear a computer until I get home from work tonight Case Analyzer.txt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted June 1, 2017 Report Share Posted June 1, 2017 Yes, this is a bug in the DNA 75 Color Case Analyzer in 2.0 SP2. I've fixed it for SP3. As a workaround, if you replace the 0 in USB Connect Temperature Rise with 0.0, it should work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasonvillamil Posted June 1, 2017 Report Share Posted June 1, 2017 (edited) I have to say that I'm experiencing the exact same thing, though not as drastic as several tenths of an ohm off. My DNA 250 mods are dead-on when reading cold ohms. I've taken the tank and build directly to the Therion 75C, waited for it to cool, and the cold ohms reading is far too low; around 0.02 ohms off, which makes the vape negligible. I have to manually increase the cold ohms to get it where it needs to be. From what I can tell, the 75C is different from the other boards in that I think it's compensating the cold resistance by the ambient room temp. That being said however, the room temp reading on the mod is way off; 10 degF or greater. Wintergreen, would you mind sharing the results of your case thermal analysis? Has your experience gotten any better on reading cold ohms after running the case analyzer? Edited June 1, 2017 by Jasonvillamil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retird Posted June 1, 2017 Report Share Posted June 1, 2017 You might run Case Analyzer and do the "workaround" that James posted before uploading and see how that effects your temp and ohm readings... The *.ecig file posted here earlier looks like the Thermals are default numbers thus the Therion's actual thermals were not defined....so the "Mod Resistance" may not have been defined either.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wintergreen Posted June 2, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2017 I tried running the case thermals again last night. I changed the USB Connect Temperature Rise with 0.0 but I still ran into the error when trying to upload the settings to the device. So at the moment the case thermals are still set to the defaults it shipped with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retird Posted June 2, 2017 Report Share Posted June 2, 2017 Another workaround is to just write down the results of the Case Analyzer and then close the Analyzer and go to the Mod Tab again and manually type in the thermal numbers and then upload them...if the numbers are within the right parameters it should upload... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasonvillamil Posted June 2, 2017 Report Share Posted June 2, 2017 Ran the case analyzer last night and the resistance measurement is much better. Only tested one build, but the cold resistance now matches what the DNA 250 reads, and the vape is great. I hit the same error in trying to upload right after the analyzer finished, so I just screenshotted the results, restarted Escribe, and plugged in the values by hand which then worked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wintergreen Posted June 2, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2017 I have had no joy with the case analyser. I ran it again and got the error, so I changed the values myself but its made no difference to it reading the correct cold resistance. Im still having to change the resistance manually to get anything near a decent vape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retird Posted June 2, 2017 Report Share Posted June 2, 2017 So I assume you take a cold atty (with new coil) and one device, both at room temperature, and you get a cold ohm's value after selecting "new coil". You get a good vape. You then take that atty and let it cool to room temperature and put in on the 75C , which is at room temperature, and select "new coil" and you get an ohm's reading variance of 0.05 between the 2 devices and a poor vape.. And on both devices you have let them "refine" for a while after using them. After refinement does the ohm's value change from "new" on either or both devices? At any rate, you now have good Thermal settings and a proper mod resistance value set and you have proper connectivity with your atty and 510 connector and still have a 0.05 variance between the 75 C and your other DNA devices. I guess you checked your atty with an ohm's checker or ohm's meter separate from the device and that reading agrees with some or most of your devices.. The 75C from Lost Vape may need to go back to them so they can figure out why such a variance. We could open the device and check further but that voids the warranty. It may be something in the design or wiring of the device and etc.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wintergreen Posted June 2, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2017 11 minutes ago, retird said: So I assume you take a cold atty (with new coil) and one device, both at room temperature, and you get a cold ohm's value after selecting "new coil". You get a good vape. You then take that atty and let it cool to room temperature and put in on the 75C , which is at room temperature, and select "new coil" and you get an ohm's reading variance of 0.05 between the 2 devices and a poor vape.. And on both devices you have let them "refine" for a while after using them. After refinement does the ohm's value change from "new" on either or both devices? Yes I take a cold atty and get different readings on the 75C than all my other devices and my USA ohms meter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted June 2, 2017 Report Share Posted June 2, 2017 Is the resistance consistently wrong in Atomizer Analyzer? If so, definitely make sure your case grounding is good (are the grounding screws loose?). The measurements used to sample Ohms (for Atomizer Analyzer or New Coil) are done at very low power (otherwise the atomizer would heat up while measuring, which would ruin the measurement), so grounding issues can be more significant than at full power. This is true for other DNAs as well, incidentally. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ndb Posted June 5, 2017 Report Share Posted June 5, 2017 On 6/2/2017 at 8:52 PM, wintergreen said: Yes I take a cold atty and get different readings on the 75C than all my other devices and my USA ohms meter. And exactly the same happens here, on a therion 75C as well. I always have to manually fix-up the cold ohm reading to the value I get from my other DNAs (200 and 75), my SS316L is sampled at around .72 on those, but always less than .71 on the 75C. But as I've reported in another thread, I can see the measured room temperature is around 10F off. I have not tried to run case analyzer to see if that fixes the miscalculation of room temperature and hence fixes the low-ohm reading as a consequence. I'll try as soon as I can get a 3 hours time slot... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Posted June 5, 2017 Report Share Posted June 5, 2017 It sounds like we need to make default thermal settings for our manufacturers and leave the values somewhere. (And get the manufacturers to update them in their production programmer settings) I think we have one of each of the 75C devices you can buy at the Mone, so we should be able to do that this week. In the meantime, if you run case analyzer and it fixes the problem, could you post what values you got and what device that was in? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasonvillamil Posted June 6, 2017 Report Share Posted June 6, 2017 Results from Case Analyzer for Lost Vape Therion DNA 75C: Case Cooling Time Constant: 155.84 s Case Heating Time Constant: 317.27 s Case Static Temp Rise: 10.47 degF Case USB Connect Temp Rise: 0 degF Case USB Charge Temp Rise: 23.6 degF/Amp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ndb Posted June 6, 2017 Report Share Posted June 6, 2017 15 hours ago, John said: It sounds like we need to make default thermal settings for our manufacturers and leave the values somewhere. (And get the manufacturers to update them in their production programmer settings) I think we have one of each of the 75C devices you can buy at the Mone, so we should be able to do that this week. Yes, please! I'm sick of buying mods which use the best chip on the planet, but don't do all they could to leverage it at its best. You gave the tools to makers, but they are apparently too lazy and this falls on customers. If you can you should try to shield customers from their laziness and provide accurate thermal profiles whenever possible. 15 hours ago, John said: In the meantime, if you run case analyzer and it fixes the problem, could you post what values you got and what device that was in? OK. I'm currently on the move with no access to escribe (yes, I'm one of those with the Mac, and can't bother keeping a Windows VM on my laptop... But that's another story...). I'll hopefully be at home in a couple of days and will run the case analyzer on the Therion 75C and post results here. Only thing is that I don't have a super-thermally-stable environment: my PC is in a non-AC and not-too-big room, so I take the occasion to ask for some suggestions. This is how I usually perform case analysis: 1) ensure batteries are at around 50% charge 2) remove atomizer 3) put the mod on a book or piece of wood 4) keep it in the middle of the desk as far as possible from the monitor and the PC Any other particular suggestion to improve the accuracy of the process? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacVap Posted June 6, 2017 Report Share Posted June 6, 2017 1 hour ago, ndb said: 2) remove atomizer I don't think you should, it's a mass (usually metal) that affects the thermal properties of the whole unit. But this is just my uninformed opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ndb Posted June 6, 2017 Report Share Posted June 6, 2017 31 minutes ago, MacVap said: I don't think you should, it's a mass (usually metal) that affects the thermal properties of the whole unit. But this is just my uninformed opinion. Well, to be honest, this is something I've always been questioning myself about. On one side I perfectly agree with you and can see the physical reasoning behind that, on the other hand, for the same "affects thermal properties of the whole unit" argument, I've lately been thinking that it would make "case-analyzing" become a "case+that-particular-atomizer-analyzing". IOW: The thermal profile would be detected for that particular combination and not for the mod itself, which means there will be some mismatch going on when using a different atomizer. By the same token though, you could certainly say that a profile obtained for the mod alone would mismatch with any atomizer... Now, what is better? 1) A thermal profile obtained with a specific atomizer being used with other atomizers OR 2) A "mod-only" thermal profile used with any atomizer I don't really know, this is something I'd really like to hear some evolv folks' input about. Does anybody want to chime in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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