Increasing max power in fw

[MikeTheVapeDude]

As someone who often uses low ohm clapton and staple builds that require a high voltage to get a good ramp up, I wonder if the wattage will ever go beyond 200W? Even 220W would be fine with me, cause then I could hit 5V on my low ohm builds. It's not about cl0udz br0, it's about low ohm clapton builds for me, 200W doesn't quite give me the ramp up I'd like. Plus 200W is becoming the past with 213W, and even 300W mods coming out now. I do actually use high wattage, and I'm too in love with and loyal to the DNA to go anywhere else, so I just figured I'd ask.

[VapingBad]

If you are vaping at 200 W maybe set the preheat time to zero, logically if you don't have it with punch = 11 and power = 200 W it may slow down the ramp up.  I would try both maxing the preheat and turning it off in your very special case.

[Wingsfan0310]

MikeTheVapeDude said:

As someone who often uses low ohm clapton and staple builds that require a high voltage to get a good ramp up, I wonder if the wattage will ever go beyond 200W? Even 220W would be fine with me, cause then I could hit 5V on my low ohm builds. It's not about cl0udz br0, it's about low ohm clapton builds for me, 200W doesn't quite give me the ramp up I'd like. Plus 200W is becoming the past with 213W, and even 300W mods coming out now. I do actually use high wattage, and I'm too in love with and loyal to the DNA to go anywhere else, so I just figured I'd ask.

Since Power = Resistance x current^2 the most you will be able to get out of 50 amps output with a .05 ohm load is 125 watts (you said low ohm Claptons, to me .05 is low ohm). Do you think a 2 x 18650 is going to be outputting more than 50 amps? Some of these companies coming out with 2 x 18650 mods claiming 200 watts and above have no shame when it comes to marketing or over promising and under delivering. When you think about it, most credible companies cap there single 18650 mods at 75 watts. With double the power source available the output capability doubles not triples or more.

If these mods could actually produce what they claim it would be with a very limited resistance range for a puff or 2 then the bottom falls out from there. These boards aren't magic, they don't create power, they step up or down voltage and do the inverse with the current minus the boards inefficiency (no board is 100% efficient, but the DNA200 is one the most efficient, if not the most I know of).

 

Cheers,
Steve

[johndoe123]

MikeTheVapeDude said:

I just wanted to know if THIS board, in a 3S configuration, would ever get added wattage. I work for FullyMax, so I'm very battery savvy. If the DNA200 got updated to like 225W, I'd never need anymore power than that.

225W is a 12.5% increase in wattage. That is substantial enough to potentially require lower gauge wires. Imagine if a company (let's say VaporShark because that's what I have) made a DNA 200 with wire rated only for 205W. Then Evolv released an update to make the board support 225W. I update my board and cause a fire. I sue VaporShark for burning my house down. VaporShark sues Evolv to get the money they owe me.

Moral of the story, it's not going to happen.

[VapingBad]

I don't like deleting or moderating posts so can we please keep it civil, even if another post got your back up.

[mikepetro]

VapingBad said:

I don't like deleting or moderating posts so can we please keep it civil, even if another post got your back up.

Thank you VB!

[Wingsfan0310]

MikeTheVapeDude said:

Edited by VapingBad as I have deleted the post concerned

I don't know what you are trying to say here. The maximum input of the board is 24 amps. A 30 amp CDR 18650 is rated at 6 amps over maximum input. The 50/55 amp output has nothing to do with the input being drawn from the batteries.

[blueridgedog]

VapingBad said:

I don't like deleting or moderating posts so can we please keep it civil, even if another post got your back up.

Agree and if you want to talk theory as to how far the board could go, start a new tread as this is for discussion of the early firmware as posted in post one.  Folks are here to help or be helped and there are other forums to play in if you want to compare size.

[VapingBad]

If Evolv change the firmware to do this then sure as eggs are eggs people will us it regardless, so if I were Evolv I wouldn't because they have given manufactures a written spec and this would exceed the limits in that.  Evolv have always prioritised safety and reliability, having voltage and current limits in the firmware are part of that as it is in modern cars that limit your engine revs in the ECU for the same reasons.  We knew it was a 200 W device when we bought it.

Anyway the request is here for Evolv to see and comment if they wish.

[James]

Hmm.

If you are vaping a low-Ohm coil, make sure you/your manufacturer have set a correct, non-zero mod resistance. If it's zero, you may be losing significant power in your 510 connection and wires.

The DNA 200 is designed to deliver at most 200 watts to the *atomizer*, but if you are losing 10% of your power before it gets there, this is a viable way to correct the problem. The DNA will happily deliver the needed extra power, subject to its input and output current limits (which, to ensure safety, do not change -- the appropriate wire gauge depends on current, not power).

For example, if you have a 0.1 Ohm coil and a 0.01 Ohm mod resistance...
If the mod resistance is set to 0 Ohm, 200W is 42.6A. The output will be 200W, but 18W is lost to mod resistance (reviewers tend to ignore this, but the quality of the 510 has a real effect on battery life at higher power...). The atomizer will receive 182W.
If the mod resistance is set properly to 0.01 Ohm, 44.7A will be delivered. The output will be 220W, with 20W lost to mod resistance, for 200W to the atomizer.

So, this is not a way to get more than 200W on the atomizer, but it *does* let you get 200W where you might not be otherwise.

[VapingBad]

I have edited one post and deleted several, it is a shame as everybody tried to help the OP.

[dwcraig1]

So if increased output could be done with a firmware update, say 225 watts, would it not require a higher amp fuse?

[johndoe123]

dwcraig1 said:

So if increased output could be done with a firmware update, say 225 watts, would it not require a higher amp fuse?

It depends. Wattage isn't really a physical quantity. Voltage and current are. There is a minimum and maximum voltage the board can supply (.5-9V). There is also a maximum current the board can supply (50A continuous). The wattage max is really just the maximum you can set the device to. Remember, the board doesn't apply wattage to the coil, it applies voltage. Given the resistance, you can determine the current needed to apply that voltage using V=IR.

So if you had a .1ohm load, the board couldn't apply its maximum voltage (9V) because it would draw 90A. So it is limited to 5V, which requires 50A. W = VI, so this is 250W. The board can't do that (see what James said, it actually can go over 200W to some extent). This limitation is just part of the firmware, not hardware. So there is no physical reason the board can't apply 250W in this case (it actually might if your mod has a high resistance).

If you had a 1ohm load, the maximum voltage you can apply is 9V. This draws 9A. This is only 81W. This is due to the voltage limitation.

If you had a .01ohm load, the maximum voltage you can apply is .5V. This draws 50A. This is only 25W. This is due to the current limitation.

So, I probably said too much but in the first case a higher amp fuse isn't required to increase up to 250W (after that yes). In the second case, the fuse is nowhere near maxed out but more than 81W requires the board to be able to apply a higher voltage than it can. In the third case, getting more than 25W would require more current, thus a higher fuse. So sometimes a higher amp fuse isn't needed to increase wattage, sometimes it is, and sometimes it wouldn't make any difference.

Btw, we are assuming increasing the maximum current the board handles means the fuse needs to increase.

[johndoe123]

James said:

Hmm.

If you are vaping a low-Ohm coil, make sure you/your manufacturer have set a correct, non-zero mod resistance. If it's zero, you may be losing significant power in your 510 connection and wires.

The DNA 200 is designed to deliver at most 200 watts to the *atomizer*, but if you are losing 10% of your power before it gets there, this is a viable way to correct the problem. The DNA will happily deliver the needed extra power, subject to its input and output current limits (which, to ensure safety, do not change -- the appropriate wire gauge depends on current, not power).

For example, if you have a 0.1 Ohm coil and a 0.01 Ohm mod resistance...
If the mod resistance is set to 0 Ohm, 200W is 42.6A. The output will be 200W, but 18W is lost to mod resistance (reviewers tend to ignore this, but the quality of the 510 has a real effect on battery life at higher power...). The atomizer will receive 182W.
If the mod resistance is set properly to 0.01 Ohm, 44.7A will be delivered. The output will be 220W, with 20W lost to mod resistance, for 200W to the atomizer.

So, this is not a way to get more than 200W on the atomizer, but it *does* let you get 200W where you might not be otherwise.

So you are telling me to set the mod resistence really high so I can get more than 200W at the atomizer!!!!

I'm kidding btw, I only ever vape in temp mode so that would probably be a bad idea.... Incorrect static resistance

[VapingBad]

There is more detail on this on the Mod Res thread https://forum.evolvapor.com/topic/65594-topic/ particularly posts #8, #11, #14 & #25

John on using mod res just to get more power post #25

Oh. Yeah. Don't do that. You can make it put out 250 watts, easy, from a fully charged battery. It won't hurt the board as such, but you'll basically be pin-balling between various protective features, so the vape won't be any good.

[mikepetro]

My 2 cents, this is a 200w board, it is what you knowingly bought going in, If 200w isnt enough to drive your xyz coil then you have two choices 1)take a wee bit of mass out of your coil, 2) find another mod, perhaps a non-regulated 60C lipo mod.

I am not Evolv, however if it were my product, one which I built a ton of safety features in to protect folks against the bad stuff that can happens, I would not sacrifice my safety margin, or my builtin service factor just to satisfy the 1% of customers who want to push it beyond its intended safe design

I think the reality is that you could put out a 300w, or even a 500w mod, and there will be the adventurous few who will ask for 10% more power to push those mods even further.

Evolv has always placed safety #1 in their designs. I sincerely hope they never compromise that.

[retird]

Thank you Mike.....well placed and timely comments which I agree with 100% and yes "safety matters".... I'm not Evolv either nor one of the 1% that " wants more and more watts". 

[johndoe123]

I have a question for Evolv or anyone else if they know. Why limit the device to 200W? For some resistances, it can do more than 200W and some it can't even get close. Was the 200W just because it was a nice even number for marketing? Why not use 250W? It can do 250W in some cases. Did 250W seem like false advertising because it could only do that for a very small range of resistances? 200W is somewhat misleading because it can't do that for it's entire range of resistances. You could also just let the user set the device to any wattage (maybe only 999 to limit it to 3 decimals) because no matter what, it will only do the maximum it can provide given its voltage and current limits. If you put a 3ohm atty on there now and set it to 200W, it isn't going to do 200W.

I have no interest in using even close to that much power so I am not asking because I want it to change, just curious. Obviously there is a voltage and current limitation for the board. But the wattage limit is just what you can set the device to. Personally I think calling a device a 200W device or any other wattage is kind of weird. It would make more sense for this to be the DNA9V50A in my mind because it more accurately describes the board but that does sound as good lol.

Again, I am not asking for this to change (I would never use it). Just curious why. Wattage limits seem kinda arbitrary to me.

[VapingBad]

The resistance does not directly dictate the power rating, it is the max & min output voltage & current and resistance that do. 

You may know, but think watts on both sides of the board with a <=3% conversion loss, at 200 W output the board needs a fraction above 206 W from the battery, at min voltage (9 V) that is 22.89 A regardless of the output voltage, current or coil resistance.  The max output voltage is 9 V, current 50 A so both a 0.2 ? & a 0.4 ? resistance would still need 206 W from the battery at 200 W.

Ultra low res takes it over the output current limit (50 A)
A 0.05 ? resistance at 200 W would need 63.25 A for 200 W which is over the current limit, but only need 3.16 V well within the voltage limit.

Higher res takes it over the output voltage limit (9 V)
A 0.5 ? resistance would need 10 V for 200 W which is over the max voltage limit, but would only need 20 A well within the current limit.

[johndoe123]

VapingBad said:

The resistance does not directly dictate the power rating, it is the max & min output voltage & current and resistance that do. 

You may know, but think watts on both sides of the board with a <=3% conversion loss, at 200 W output the board needs a fraction above 206 W from the battery, at min voltage (9 V) that is 22.89 A regardless of the output voltage, current or coil resistance.  The max output voltage is 9 V, current 50 A so both a 0.2 ? & a 0.4 ? resistance would still need 206 W from the battery at 200 W.

Ultra low res takes it over the output current limit (50 A)
A 0.05 ? resistance at 200 W would need 63.25 A for 200 W which is over the current limit, but only need 3.16 V well within the voltage limit.

Higher res takes it over the output voltage limit (9 V)
A 0.5 ? resistance would need 10 V for 200 W which is over the max voltage limit, but would only need 20 A well within the current limit.

I'm assuming this is a response to what I said, sorry if it's not. I was doing the calculations to get wattage from resistance given the specs of the board. I agree with everything you are saying. And that's the point. All this math is needed. I'm an engineer, I don't dislike math. I just find it odd that we call a device a 200W device because the manufacture says you can set the wattage up that high. Think about it, the range that the DNA 200 can hit the 200W is actually pretty good. Let's say I made a device that could only hit 200W at one resistance (I'm to lazy to do the math right now but if you picked the right voltage and current limits you could do it). I could call this a 200W device. I wouldn't really be lieing would I? But it's not anywhere near as capable as the DNA 200. That's why I think defining boards based on the maximum wattage makes little sense. I also don't see a reason to limit the maximum wattage you can set (other than marketing). If you set the device to a wattage it can't provide, it just does the highest it can. It already does that. So what's the point of a wattage limit? Do you see how the wattage is pretty arbitrary?

[johndoe123]

smartalec1020 said:

I'm assuming this is a response to what I said, sorry if it's not. I was doing the calculations to get wattage from resistance given the specs of the board. I agree with everything you are saying. And that's the point. All this math is needed. I'm an engineer, I don't dislike math. I just find it odd that we call a device a 200W device because the manufacture says you can set the wattage up that high. Think about it, the range that the DNA 200 can hit the 200W is actually pretty good. Let's say I made a device that could only hit 200W at one resistance (I'm to lazy to do the math right now but if you picked the right voltage and current limits you could do it). I could call this a 200W device. I wouldn't really be lieing would I? But it's not anywhere near as capable as the DNA 200. That's why I think defining boards based on the maximum wattage makes little sense. I also don't see a reason to limit the maximum wattage you can set (other than marketing). If you set the device to a wattage it can't provide, it just does the highest it can. It already does that. So what's the point of a wattage limit? Do you see how the wattage is pretty arbitrary?

I was asking this questions because I was curious why 200W was chosen, it seemed arbitrary to me. But I just thought of something. I am no battery expert. Are there any negative effects of draining a battery very quickly? If there are then I could see the a potential reason to limit the wattage to lower than would the board is capable given the voltage and current limits. The higher the wattage, the faster the battery drain. So even though the board could handle it, you might not want to drain the battery that quickly. This was just a potential reason, like I said, not a battery expert.

[VapingBad]

Limiting the wattage is limiting the input side of the circuitry and not at all arbitrary IMO. In this case that is for safe and full use of a 3s Li battery, they allow down to 3.1 V per cell rather than your mod only performing as stated with a fresh battery.   The voltage limit is again from the battery and it being a step down converter.  The current limit is hardware, as this is what makes the internals get hot.

[MikeTheVapeDude]

See, I find it insulting that this finally went in the direction I wanted it to after all my posts were deleted and I was made look like a fool who wanted to have a measuring contest with clouds because I vape on thick staple claptons on a daily basis. So now I just look like a cl0ud br0 and have no validity left in anything I said. If it's okay for people to quote electronics law at me that I've in the past on this forum clearly demonstrated I know due to being an engineer and treat me like an idiot and say I'm here to measure size, but it's not okay for me to call attention to how offensive that is to me I genuinely don't want to be a part of this community anymore. I'm out, all over this. This have given me a picture of what I need to know, and outside of getting firmware out of the thread I won't be coming back here or posting anymore. Thanks for insulting me and making me look like a fool.

[VapingBad]

You had plenty of time to edit your posts.  I see nothing wrong with people quoting electronics law, this is the www and you cannot expect strangers to know your level of understanding.  All post are public, not a private message chain so we should be grateful when poster take the time to write an explanation that all can understand and it why this forum exists.