600F is not enough for stainless steel coils!

[sdmf74]

I didn't know where to post to suggest future changes to the firmware but I cannot believe that this wasn't changed long ago. I like to vape primarily temp control and stainless steel coils and the majority of stainless steel coils from eleaf and aspire require a higher temp setting than 600f. I find myself vaping at 600f and getting a weak vape, if I press the up button once to turn off tc I get a much more satisaying vape but I prefer tc. It's the same issue with all of my DNA devices Reuleaux, therion dna75, therion dna 166, and even a custom built DNA200 with a max amps lipo. Is there a way to increase the temp above 600f (say to 650 or more) for ONLY stainless steel materials in a future version of the software? I have tried everything I can think of to fix the issue so if anyone has any suggestions please do? I would be interested In hearing what brandon or anyone at evolv has to say about it, I'm sure there are reasons for not going above 600f but honestly SS materials need it. I'm not real good with setting the tcr parameters and I'm guessing that could be one work around the issue but for those of us that don't fully understand tcr I'm hoping for an update.

[bgarren]

Not really for one profile. Try a greater preheat punch. They would have to recalibrate the entire chip to go above or below the temp thresholds in place. The issue is the temperature is at a threshold most materials are safest and most efficient at. Remember at the start 450 degrees was a setting to avoid dry hits at the burning point of cotton. Try a different wire for a warmer vape, such as sweet spot ti, it will probably be the warmest with one of the lowest k values or heat absorption to size ratio

[VapingBad]

It could be several things, the most likley being: locking the cold res too low, not enough contact area between the coil and the wick (add more wraps), material not matching the TCR or poor contacts.  Low preheat or low power are less likley as they are the first things most people would try.  I use 316L from 2 different sources (StealthVape & Zipipf) mostly tipple twisted 0.2 mm or  0.4 mm and never need to go above 400 F, I use the Evolv SS316 material profile, ph power about 2-3 times vape power and ph punch maxed.

[awsum140]

I would speculate that there are some settings that need to be tweaked or there are problems with the atomizers.  The one that pops into mind, first, is mod resistance.  At 600 degrees you should be getting a disgusting, burnt, taste loaded with things you really don't want to be inhaling.  In fact, even at about 500 degrees the taste should be getting right on the edge of being bad. In terms of safety, not producing harmful by-products, you really want to stay below 470F.

I have an old Big Fogger that has problems with varying resistance.  It can vape well one minute and be weak to non-existent and go into temperature protection the next minute.  This is a result of a poor connection at the center pin which is producing variations in resistance seen by the chip.  The variation is only a hundredth of an ohm or so, but that is more than enough to effect performance dramatically.

Like VB, I use 316L, mine is from Temco, with the SS profile from Evolv (stock profile) and the highest I am running is 400F.  Those are single wire, 26 gauge, 6 wrap coils and are in both single and dual coil RTAs.

Another thing to check is the center pins on both the atomizer(s) and mods to make certain they are clean and the spring on the center pin of the mod is working properly.

[Wayneo]

I'm with @Saint_VB and @awsum. Pick one of your mods with this issue and post a couple full Printscreens (Mod tab, Material tab with wire type highlighted, profile you use) and finally Device Monitor while firing. Power, power set, temp, temp set, cold ohms, live ohms ticked.

bgarren said:

Not really for one profile. Try a greater preheat punch. They would have to recalibrate the entire chip to go above or below the temp thresholds in place. The issue is the temperature is at a threshold most materials are safest and most efficient at. Remember at the start 450 degrees was a setting to avoid dry hits at the burning point of cotton. Try a different wire for a warmer vape, such as sweet spot ti, it will probably be the warmest with one of the lowest k values or heat absorption to size ratio

Guy, seriously? Pick any temperature, and your vape should have the same warmth WITH ANY WIRE TYPE. The OP is already here '600f and getting a weak vape' that's the issue.

 

[Wayneo]

awsum140 said:

.... In terms of safety, not producing harmful by-products, you really want to stay below 470F.

Complete Super solid post, but didn't wanna go there ^^^^^, seeing as how we're Evolv-ing. 

[awsum140]

I didn't want to go there, either, but 600F is REALLY kind of high.

[VapingBad]

True, but I don't think it is getting anywhere 600 F in this case, just one or more of the above issues causing it to be a weak vape.

[awsum140]

You're probably right, VB.  If it was getting that hot it couldn't actually be vaped.

[sdmf74]

Instead of quoting multiple comments I will just share some replies. First a Preheat punch only makes things worse, if I use a preheat I just hit Temp protect sooner resulting in a colder vape, need more headroom not less.

Different wires are great, I own them all but the point of this thread is to get a satisfying vape from 316,316L. Titanium tastes funny to me and I dont like it, but tempered N1200 is great. I realize SS wire has a smaller range for the device to recognize TC but if its possible with homemade SS coils it really should be possible with manufactured coils such as the eleaf and aspire coils I mentioned above, I am referring to the aspire coils and all of the eleaf SS coils including the new notch coils (not sure about the 1.8ohm ones though never used them).

I dont seem to have this problem with my Lightening Vapes 36ss/24ss clapton or my 36ss/24k clapton wires using the tcr's on their website or even the evolv 316l tcr with the LV wire.

I want to respond to this reply: "I would speculate that there are some settings that need to be tweaked or there are problems with the atomizers.  The one that pops into mind, first, is mod resistance.  At 600 degrees you should be getting a disgusting, burnt, taste loaded with things you really don't want to be inhaling.  In fact, even at about 500 degrees the taste should be getting right on the edge of being bad. In terms of safety, not producing harmful by-products, you really want to stay below 470F."
          I know how to set mod resisitance, I have a solid copper threaded plug thats perfectly machined and have set M.R. on all my DNA devices. Most are around .004 but I have tried .006 and of course 0.00. mod resistance doesnt help with the issue. Trust me there is nothing unsafe about these coils at 600F, it is a VERY weak
vape barely producing any vapor no matter what tank I use. Center pins are fine as I said its not the mod, I have tried 4 different DNA Devices and 3 different boards 75,200,250. I also clean my threads with q tip and 91% alcohol.

Thanks for all your replies!  Does anyone actually use the coils I am referring to? remember I am not talking about building with prefab wire, I do that mostly & it works fine but some of my tanks require premade coils (obviously) and thats the problem here.

I think posting screenshots of device monitor should help for those that can decode it better than I. Let me eat my spicy chicken strips from hardees and I will get them posted as requested, thanks again

[giz_60]

If you are getting a good vape from SS coils you build, but not from ones that are per-built (manufactured), then it was seem that your issue is with the 'manufactured' coils....not the DNA boards...otherwise, it would be an issue despite what SS coils were being used...QC?...just a thought

Edit: In your original post, you did mention that you are using the eleaf & aspire coils..however, you neglected to mention that your home builds were working fine...lack of info lead everyone to believe that it was a universal problem across your devices with SS material...

[Wayneo]

@sdmf74 YES, I use Aspire Triton and Cleito SS .4 premade coils succesfully in temp mode, the warmth I get from them matches my use of Ti coils at the same temp. Also closely matches when I 'roll my own' coils with 316L or 430.

Is this ".... evolv 316l tcr with the LV wire" the material profile you're using for them?

@giz That 'Aspire' in post 1 is actually what caught my eye first. Of all my posts, I only ever posted 1 Topic, which was about these coils. Without making assumptions I'm leaning towards that 29 hour problem

Edit: spelling

[giz_60]

Wayneo said:

Without making assumptions I'm leaning towards that 29 hour problem

But, if it was the 20 hour syndrome, then wouldn't all SS coils be affected? I had a similar issue, at one time, but with a different brand atty. The pre-made coils would work fine, but when using the RBA deck, TC would be all wonky. Put the deck in a different base, & a wonderful vape. Turned out there was some machining issues with the base of that particular atty & the 510 pin in the base wasn't making good contact with the deck but continuity with the OEM coils was good...that one drove me bonkers for a spell...

[awsum140]

Again, I'll go back to the contact problems.  You've supplied more information and you're having problems with replaceable coils, not hand built coils.  The major difference being the center pin connection quality.

[sdmf74]

I have only used the cleito SS coils once and I dont remember having any issues with them. Not sure what you mean by the "29 hour problem".
As I said Its the same thing on different tanks so no deck or center pin problem. I too had a problem once with a wonky subtank base but thats not the problem here. 
I may just have to find different coils, normally eleaf coils are great (non ss) and they dont cost $20 a pack

Sorry for the delay, here is the ss's of a puff on Lemo 3 (new) w/ eleaf notch coil
general tab, materials tab, mod tab
 
     

[Wayneo]

Not sure what you mean by the "29 hour problem". - That was meant for @giz.

On a first look, I see nothing wrong with your settings. I'll have to ponder on this for a while

[sdmf74]

Yeah its got me stumped, ive tried everything I can think of and I just grabbed my new serpent mini that I havent even used yet and built a coil with some 26awg UD 316l and it vapes fine at a much lower temp so it does seem to be just the eleaf SS coils and some of the aspires too
but Ill have to retest with them (aspires) its been a while.

[Spector NS5 RD]

since i've been vaping SS316L, i have noticed i always have to ramp my temps up, way up, sometimes reaching close to the 600F mark. so you're not alone @sdmf74. i find i have to crank my temps after refinement has had time to refine the res. funny thing is, after refinement if i set any of DNA's to the 550F mark, the temp is actually more around 460-490 avg. this was measured with a DMM thermocouple. also, 600F barley browns dry new cotton, take from that what you will. super accurate thermocouple? probably not but i do know what a 550F vape should feel like with the same mass (gauge and wraps) coil setup of a different material. and all of my DNA's are dialed in - case analyzer, copper plug for mod res, spaced coils, tight connections, clean 510's, stock 316 curve etc etc etc.

my workaround, lock the resistance as soon as the atty with SS is installed. don't give refinement a chance to lower the base resistance. this is my preference. some see locking the res as the anti christ. i see it as another tool to get the vape i want.

[sdmf74]

I agree with everything you said that's why I think evolv should look into allowing for a higher temp setting, if its not possible to only allow higher temp for ss materials then raise it across the board. I don't see why this can't be done with a firmware update as one other person argued. I have read other threads similar to mine so I know it's not just me having temp issues with stainless steel wire. I will try your suggestion but I think a better solution could be had with help from evolv.

[Spector NS5 RD]

sdmf74 said:

I agree with everything you said that's why I think evolv should look into allowing for a higher temp setting, if its not possible to only allow higher temp for ss materials then raise it across the board. I don't see why this can't be done with a firmware update as one other person argued. I have read other threads similar to mine so I know it's not just me having temp issues with stainless steel wire. I will try your suggestion but I think a better solution could be had with help from evolv.

i don't think they'll be able to raise the temp limit of a specific wire material. because the 200-600F spectrum is generically used for all TC wires. singling out just 316 isn't really a viable option. you can tweak the CSV or TCR (whichever you use) to dial in your specific SS. this is actually why 600F feels like 500F with some SS. just because it says "SS316" on the spool doesn't mean one size fits all or CSV curve/TCR fits all 316. if i wasn't so lazy, i would tweak my 316 curve in escribe to my liking. locking in the first read res reading is just easier for me. just some ideas for ya.

[dylang919]

I usually use advanced vape supply 316l or temco and depending on the style of build, my Temps range from around 470 to 520. Now 520 to me is on the high side when wanting a temp controlled vape, bUT it vapes fine at that temp with no bad tastes. Could be just the way that particular brand of wire is made. That's what I've chalked it up too. I also use preheat with a small punch.

[sdmf74]

I think its a well known fact that SS wire requires a much higher temp setting on the device. At least when building our own coils we have more control over the quality of vape we get, not so much with manufactured coils. I tried locking the resistance and it didn't seem to help much. I wish I had a complete understanding on how to adjust the tcr to counter the shortcoming of the DNA devices. I've tried to research it a couple times just couldn't find a whole lot of good info on it and I'm not sure it would even help much with SS anyway. After all when the first devices with tc came out and the temperature range was established with a max of 600F SS wire wasn't even considered as a possible wire material so it should be obvious to evolv that raising the temperature to meet the needs of new materials is a good solution even if it just to 650 or 700F. I'm curious does evolv pop in on threads any more? I know they used to participate in the forums quite a bit. I would be interested to get their take on the situation.

[awsum140]

I really don't think the problem is the chipset or the software.  The biggest problem is finding the right TCR curve for the specific wire being used.  Even relatively minor changes along the curve will effect how well it vapes.  That's not chipset/DNA related, it's more related to inconsistencies in the wire types and the specific run of the wire or even variations inside a small roll or wire.  Stainless does seem to be more prone to this problem though. The biggest problem is that without a lab quality micro ohmmeter it becomes a "by guess and by gosh" operation and leaves you wondering just what the real temperature of the build is.

[Wayneo]

TLDR; Try my Goldilocks method.

Hey @sdmf74 I think VB said it best "True, but I don't think it is getting anywhere 600 F in this case" when even you get different results with your known/handbuilt coils/wire. SS being an alloy, we all know the wire composition can vary batch. We also know how honest China companies are.

Are there any other TC coils you could try for that tank, or a rebuildable deck option?

Other than, why not try @Chunky's suggestion of modifying the curve or a custom TCR for those coils.
Here's what I'd do (as I don't have a thermoprobe, and you want to rule out a connection issue).

Create a material type with a TCR value of 120 (.00120) name it tcr120, and another of 140.
Load them both on your mod either in a new profile or just material type

With your ohms not locked try your coil at your regular 600F with your regular profile.
Let your resistance refine

Change to new material type (tcr120 or tcr140) without removing atty AND also adjust/Set your temp at what you normally like/remember (4xx - 5xx) with your own wire
Have a vape (still cold/weak - try higher tcr, too hot - try lower tcr), by just changing to the different profile or material immediately

Now you should have an idea if you need to go to even higher values (still too cold at 140)
or lower values (too hot at 120)
Keep doing that until you feel you're in the ballpark.
Trash your tested material profiles, and either leave what you liked as just the TCRnumber or name it Notch or whatever is meaningful to you.

Final thoughts .... just run in straight wattage mode where you know it works great.

For this anomaly wouldn't you want to pose your question to the coil manufacturer?

If any of you guys @giz @awsum @VB @chunky think i'm off my rocker, I can delete this, just let me know (pm or publicly)

[giz_60]

Wayneo said:

TLDR; Try my Goldilocks method.

Hey @sdmf74 I think VB said it best "True, but I don't think it is getting anywhere 600 F in this case" when even you get different results with your known/handbuilt coils/wire. SS being an alloy, we all know the wire composition can vary batch. We also know how honest China companies are.

Are there any other TC coils you could try for that tank, or a rebuildable deck option?

Other than, why not try @Chunky's suggestion of modifying the curve or a custom TCR for those coils.
Here's what I'd do (as I don't have a thermoprobe, and you want to rule out a connection issue).

Create a material type with a TCR value of 120 (.00120) name it tcr120, and another of 140.
Load them both on your mod either in a new profile or just material type

With your ohms not locked try your coil at your regular 600F with your regular profile.
Let your resistance refine

Change to new material type (tcr120 or tcr140) without removing atty AND also adjust/Set your temp at what you normally like/remember (4xx - 5xx) with your own wire
Have a vape (still cold/weak - try higher tcr, too hot - try lower tcr), by just changing to the different profile or material immediately

Now you should have an idea if you need to go to even higher values (still too cold at 140)
or lower values (too hot at 120)
Keep doing that until you feel you're in the ballpark.
Trash your tested material profiles, and either leave what you liked as just the TCRnumber or name it Notch or whatever is meaningful to you.

Final thoughts .... just run in straight wattage mode where you know it works great.

For this anomaly wouldn't you want to pose your question to the coil manufacturer?

If any of you guys @giz @awsum @VB @chunky think i'm off my rocker, I can delete this, just let me know (pm or publicly)

Not off your rocker at all...i basically did the same thing because I wasn't happy with the Steam Engine TCR value...I have all my devices SS316L TCR set at .00105...and thats for my hand rolled coils....