Temperature Proteted WARNING message confusion?

[mactavish]

In the Escribe manual under warning messages it states: "Temperature Protected: The heating coil reached the maximum allowed temperature during the puff. If this happens, the DNA 200 will continue to fire, but will not be able to provide the desired wattage." This is in the list for WARNING messages. As this is my first DNA200 product, I'm confused as many state the onscreen message that flashes 3 times default on the mod "Temperature Protected", just means the device has reached the temp the user set. There are many other online posts where users are trouble shooting, perhaps connnection issues etc., that mention TP warnings are an example of their problem. If seeing this message after firing is a GOOD thing, why is it listed as an ERROR message? I know you can turn that message off, but that does not make sense to me. Also adding to my confusion is on my Titanium coil build .33 ohms, the vapor is the same at 10 watts and 200 watts, while the manual says "wattage" is what effects vapor production, not temperature, and I assume these are related. Thanks for any help.

[James]

Wattage is what affects vapor production, that's true. Provided you aren't encountering the temperature protection, it's approximately proportional. Is your atomizer reaching maximum temperature even at 10W?

The reason it is an error message is that the original intent of temperature protection was to prevent dry hits and/or to keep the coil temperature below the breakdown temperature of the juice components, and otherwise the vape would be identical to normal coils. Preheat was added so people don't have to wait for their juice to reach its active vaping temperature. So, if set up in this manner, you would never get that message except when it prevented a dry hit or other unsafe vaping condition.

The problem is that many atomizers are not designed properly to be able to emit large quantities of vapor without getting dangerously hot. So people run into the temperature protection a lot, and have come to use the temperature protection to achieve 'absolutely the maximum possible amount of vapor for this atomizer, while keeping at a safe level'. That's fair, but it would be better if the atomizer design was such that you never needed to hit such high temperatures to get good amounts of vapor.

[mactavish]

Just watching the screen on the LavaBox, even at 10 watts, it gets to my set temp of 470F, very quickly, then of course I see the Temp Protect message, same at 200 watts. So I don't see how wattage can effect vapor much, this on a Subtank Mini, .33 ohm Titanium coil in the RBA. I know a few devices like the iStick 40w TC mod, DO NOT even allow any wattage adjustments in TC mode, only TEMP adjustments. My first TC device was the IPV D2, with its scaled down YiHi chip, similar behavior in terms of what I'm seeing when I adjust wattage on that and the DNA200. Except it does not flash any temp protect warnings, just regulates the temp, but when the wick gets dry, you get a screen message, "NO JUICE". I don't mind seeing the DNA200 temp protect message if that's simply telling me everything is working properly, though in its current usage its really no longer a true "warning", more like a confirmation. I'm still confused as to using the wattage up/down setting, if it makes NO difference in my actual vaping. Perhaps it's just because the added power of having 200 watts available, as well as PREHEAT, which I have left at the default settings? If that's the case, then of course it makes sense to leave my wattage at 10, to have long battery life between charges, no? Just trying to learn the DNA200, you guys did a TERRIFIC job creating this top of the line chip.

[retird]

Have you another atty that you can try?  Are your coils spaced coils where the wraps are not touching each other?  Have you ran Atomizer Analyzer and it shows a solid build?

Some Subtanks can be kinda finicky in RBA mode. 

[mactavish]

Not sure your question. James fron Evolv just wrote earlier that everything I described was working as as designed.

[retird]

Just asking for a bit of info about your build etc.  Sometimes hot-spots in the coil can cause quick temp protect message.

[mactavish]

Different builds, different coil materials, and different tanks. All behave the same in regards to TP messages and wattage settings. Maybe James will followup.

[retird]

hum,  just took my nickel 0.15 ohm, 400F, 25 watt, 100 watt preheat build down to 10 watts and it took about 10 seconds to hit temp protect (very little vapor also) where it gets there quickly at 25 watts with loads of vapor.

Thinking out loud:  Might run Mod Analyzer and check the Thermal settings shown in EScribe.  If the board was not configured by Lavabox (sent out with default settings) then the temps may be off.  Just a guess.

[mactavish]

My Subtank with prebuilt Nickle coil is reading at .12 ohms right now, just put it on. At 10 watts, 450 degrees, takes 3 seconds to hit TP. At 200 watts about 2 seconds. Same amount of vapor. If I want more vapor, I raise the temp. Granted these numbers would be a bit different if the ohms read closer to the .15 the coil should read. Sometimes I cheat a bit, and take the tank on/off and get a slightly higher ohm readout, like now I'm at .13 ohms, more vapor, at same settings. The prebuilt coils are know to have some connectivity issues the way the leads are only captured by the rubber grommets. But on most, at least the ohms don't seem to drift. Not an issue on my RBA builds. Not sure what we have learned here. I setup the LavaBox with 11.1 volts, 9.99 WH. LavaBox/Volcano does NOT setup the Escribe properly so the user must do it. Something Evolv should demand, as a new buyer without using Escibe will get LOW BATTERY messages, far too soon, see these messages on the net all over the place.

[retird]

Curious what the Thermal settings are showing in EScribe?  I have no Lavabox.  

[mactavish]

Where are "thermal" settings in Escribe?

[retird]

Under Mod tab.

Just saw your update that Lavabox does not set up their device properly.  Definitely should have been.

[mactavish]

here you go, not sure how this pertains, it's the defaults I see.

[retird]

Those are the default setting of the Evolv board as sent to the device makers.  The enclosures are different depending on the design and material etc. and the Mod analyzer is used to properly tune the settings for the board to the device so the most accurate temp can be delivered.  At least that is what I understand.  

I'm thinking this may play a part in what you are seeing.  James can correct me if I'm off base and miss-informed.

[mactavish]

I believe this mod is working as designed. It hits the temp I set it for, very quickly. The temp protect message as James wrote was originally designed as a WARNING, though now it flashes in most cases as a CONFIRMATION. Since unlike my IPV D2, I do not see a "No Juice" warning message in Escribe, I assume one gets the same TP message when you are nearing a dry hit, as of now I have not drained my first few test tanks to know. As far as 10-200 watt vapor control, it seems to be the same as I have encountered with the D2, meaning I see very little difference in vapor production, or change in such. When I asked about this in the D2 thread, I was told that IPV/YiHi used the wattage setting to RAMP up to the desired temperature, faster/slower, and nothing more. While that kind of made sense, I still could not grasp why one would not want the fastest RAMP up time to get to temp all the time, meaning leaving the D2 at its Max of 75 watts. That device has no preheat setting either. And the iStick 40 TC mod, does not even have any wattage adjustment in TC mode! All your vapor output is via temp settings. I'm not saying anything is wrong or not working properly as I get a good vape at my set temps, just don't see any fine tuning here with the wide spread of wattage settings I have described. Only wish I understood it better. In power mode, kanthal coil, the wattage controls the vapor volume, very simple and what I am used to from the past. Thanks for your interest. I'm sure James and his team are busy, hopefully I will get a more detailed explanation of how wattage is to be used for vapor adjustment as the DNA200 manual states, or not!

[VapingBad]

If you are maxing your coil at the temp then wattage doesn't adjust much, but if you make a coil that spreads the heat more you will not be hitting the limit as much and you will find the wattage is still the adjustment for vapour production.

[mactavish]

Ok, what would be a good example of a coil build that would "spread the heat"? I have some prebuilt TC coils here as well for a quick test. Not really sure what you are saying regarding maxing the coil at the temp, isn't that the whole idea of TC? Getting to the desired temp and staying there for the duration of the puff.

[VapingBad]

I am not trying to preach to anyone or tell people my way is the only valid way, just answering a question here.

mactavish said:

Ok, what would be a good example of a coil build that would "spread the heat"? I have some prebuilt TC coils here as well for a quick test.

In general one with more contact area between the wick and coil, normally that means a few more wraps, but you could have change wire size.   If you use the SteameEngine coil calc the equates to keeping the heat flux low.

mactavish said:

Not really sure what you are saying regarding maxing the coil at the temp, isn't that the whole idea of TC? Getting to the desired temp and staying there for the duration of the puff.

I mean vaping at the temp limit by maxing the coil at the temp, lots of people vape like that and that's fine and you have to if you want fast heat up and the mod doesn't have pre-heat.  Imaging your coil has 6 wraps and you like it hitting the temp limit quickly at say 40 W if you look in device manager it will settle at a lower wattage, say 30 W.  You should find a larger coil say 8-9 wraps vape as well or better at 30 W and only hits the temp limit now and again, but vaping like that the wattage will work as the vapour adjustment as it does in non temp limiting mode.  Many people vape the other way, there is no right or wrong and as James said not all atomisers allow you to do it and you just end up at the temp limit.  I choose the temp by the liquid for flavour and not the build, which is why I try and stick to operating this way, can't always do it though YMMV.

Temp Limiting was developed to prevent the liquid being subjected to temperature over a set threshold and not to stay at the temperature.  It is the coil temp that is limited not the vapour and the liquid has a fixed vaporisation temp.  I believe that the improved flavour is not from staying at that temp, but rather from never exceeding it. Once the liquid on the wick is heated it can trigger chemical reactions that we see by a change in colour and these would change the flavour to.  So as long as I am getting enough vapour and stop the liquid getting too hot I'm happy.

[Mad Scientist]

James said:

. . . and have come to use the temperature protection to achieve 'absolutely the maximum possible amount of vapor for this atomizer, while keeping at a safe level'. That's fair, but it would be better if the atomizer design was such that you never needed to hit such high temperatures to get good amounts of vapor.

I think realistically, many if not most people sooner or later either most of the time or at least at times try to wring maximum possible performance from an atomizer/build. Once you get accustomed to "more" the tendency is to want "MORE." This trend is readily observable in each next turn of atty design (like every two weeks it seems lol ) and in the demand for boards that can deliver as many as . . . 200 watts. One attraction of temp control is to be able to get best possible performance (admittedly assumed to mean ever larger amounts of high density vapor) while avoiding excessive temps (excessive meaning either adversely affecting strength/quality of flavor or producing a harsh flavor which usually includes nasty juice decomposition byproducts). Another plus is the ability to set a temp that delivers the flavor performance desired, which is almost always a lower temp than max vapor output. As the temp setting necessarily affects power, I can get the vape I want by adjusting either. My choice is to adjust temp and allow the device to do what it's supposed to by limiting temp through its modulation of power. To me (and many others) I don't need to be warned that it's doing what it's supposed to do. Luckily, you guys allow that to be configured so we can turn the warning off. Now if we could just get the up/down to adjust temp instead of power as another configurable setting . . . and allow configuration of the temp bump per press . . . (should I duck lol).

[Bobby]

I also see the "temperature protected' message more as information (that the temperature is regulated), than as an error message.

In my opinion the biggest advantage of TC is not Dry-hit/high-temp prevention while trying to get the biggest clouds but hitting the sweetspot of evaporation for the duration of the puff (and thus getting the best flavor out of the juice).
I made the simplified picture below explaining this benefit on a Dutch forumboard some time ago.

Off course, this is my opinion. Everybody can use the settings he/she likes best.

[scoopy]

I still would love to be able to adjust the tempo with the + and - and switch the temp to the wattage section when in temp mode

[retird]

I like being able to adjust wattage easily in temp mode.  If this idea of adjusting temp with +/- is added please make it an option and not an only default.

[Manny4pacman]

I would like to see an appart screen for no liquid Tbh

Just cause temp prot message is stil not means your wick is dry

[lexalove]

Manny4pacman said:

I would like to see an appart screen for no liquid Tbh

Just cause temp prot message is stil not means your wick is dry

 

I don't see the point of a ''dry wick'' message. Surely you know when your wick is dry because you'll get no flavour /vapor? When I'm using one of my dripper that's how I know when I have to drip.

[lexalove]

Bobby said:

I also see the "temperature protected' message more as information (that the temperature is regulated), than as an error message.

In my opinion the biggest advantage of TC is not Dry-hit/high-temp prevention while trying to get the biggest clouds but hitting the sweetspot of evaporation for the duration of the puff (and thus getting the best flavor out of the juice).
I made the simplified picture below explaining this benefit on a Dutch forumboard some time ago.

Off course, this is my opinion. Everybody can use the settings he/she likes best.

I think your diagram illustrates the benefits of temperature controlled (limited) vaping perfectly.