Theme Designers 'Top Downloads' panel - count spamming. STOP!

[zark]

Капча, при создании учётной записи, подтверждение email, одобрение регистрации модератором это те шаги, которые нужно пройти для регистрации на многих сайтах (условия, которые не может выполнить бот), это неприятно, но это один раз, а потом спокойное, безопасное и беспрепятственное использование сайта.

Этот форум отличается от других, здесь нет коммерции и рекламы, многие другие форумы  превратились, практически, в торговые площадки и в рекламу услуг связанных с вейпингом, но элементарное правило- нет регистрации значит и нет возможности работать с сайтом, действует очень хорошо.

[Skit]

1 hour ago, Wayneo said:

@Skit Please self edit your post. Leave only positive thoughts and suggestions. For about the gazillionth time this must remain respectful. Please and Thanks man 👍

Tomorrow you will see the downloads for each of the 7 (for the 16th), and moving forward, HERE.

I'm very sorry about this. I've taken down the post as I can see why some users might see it as abrasive. That was not my intent.

I'll try and rephrase what I've said in the original post here for everyone to see.

I believe that the core issue in this problem is that devs are not getting the recognition they *think* they deserve and then turn to vote manipulation to do so.

Unless your theme is *constantly* updated. And I mean ***constantly*** your post will be buried in a few days from the new panel. Not that even a lot of people will look in there, and even when they do it's a few downloads a day like you've said yourself. Certain themes have been in the top for far too long. Heck, the DEFAULT theme is on there. Can you try and understand why some devs would feel like they are getting slapped in the face?

We literally don't ask for anything for the hundreds of hours of work we do, we don't ask for money, we don't ask for ANYTHING. And all that work get buried in a month never to be seen ever again by anyone.

The ONLY way to get to the top is to fake stats or "update" your theme constantly.

Fix the core issues, and people will naturally stop doing this.

My suggestion is to have a weekly hand picked panel by the staff since you guys will be monitoring the posts anyway. This panel will not allow ANY post to go on there twice in a row.

The core issue is that devs feel like their work is not appreciated and a system that actively buries and punishes new themes that are well polished (never needs to updated and therefore shown to new people)!

Edited April 16, 2021 by Skit

[zark]

Еше одно пожелание. Почему нет возможности исправлять оценку (количество звёзд) в комментариях. Низкой оценкой можно стимулировать автора внести изменения и исправить ошибки, но если я поставлю низкую оценку кому либо, то уже не смогу изменить это, даже если автор всё исправил и улучшил свою разработку. Это очень грустно и несправедливо.

[CMK]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb Skit:

We literally don't ask for anything for the hundreds of hours of work we do, we don't ask for money, we don't ask for ANYTHING. And all that work get buried in a month never to be seen ever again by anyone.

DAS ist der Grund, weshalb ich zuvor schon von einer Mindestanforderung an die Schöpfungsrede geschrieben habe. Unzählige Stock-Themes in kürzester Zeit, welche sich nur im Wallpaper unterscheiden. 

[zark]

Модераторы, вы видите что длина этой ветки так же огромна, как и велика необходимость, что то менять в условиях публикации на форуме. Задумайтесь, может не нужно бороться со спамом, а создавать условия при которых спам будет не нужен и невозможен

Edited April 16, 2021 by zark

[CMK]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb zark:

Модераторы, вы видите что длина этой ветки так же огромна, как и велика необходимость, что то менять в условиях публикации на форуме. Задумайтесь, может нужно не бороться со спамом, создавать условия при которых спам будет не нужен и невозможен

Also meiner Meinung nach sollten die Anforderungen an eine Veröffentlichung und das Spammen getrennt voneinander betrachtet werden können - es sind zwei unterschiedliche Probleme. Ein Captcha vor dem Download wäre auf jeden Fall ein guter Anfang. 

[Skit]

10 minutes ago, zark said:

Задумайтесь, может нужно не бороться со спамом, создавать условия при которых спам будет не нужен и невозможен

EXACTLY!

[CMK]

Betrachtet es als "Eitelkeit", meinetwegen auch "Streben nach Internet-Ruhm", aber tatsächlich haben einige von uns unzählige Stunden Arbeit investiert und unsere Themes sind derart komplex UND ausgereift, dass es einen erheblichen Aufwand bedeutet, daran echte Neuerungen, Verbesserungen vorzunehmen. Bis dahin sind wir durch diese Vielzahl "einfacher" Modifikationen nur noch durch gezielte Suche auffindbar. Aufmerksamkeit ist unser einziger Lohn. 

Ich sehe natürlich das Problem, neue User, Anfänger nicht zu entmutigen - ihnen die Anerkennung zu geben, dass sie sich weiterentwickeln. 

Vielleicht ist es ein guter Weg zur Motivation, wenn die Kategorie der "Empfohlenen Downloads" weiter ausgebaut wird? 

Edited April 16, 2021 by gwyar

[zark]

3 minutes ago, gwyar said:

Считайте это «тщеславием», если хотите, «стремлением к интернет-славе», но на самом деле некоторые из нас потратили бесчисленные часы работы, а наши темы настолько сложны И зрелы, что это означает значительные усилия для внесения реальных инноваций и улучшений. А пока это множество «простых» модификаций можно будет найти только с помощью целевого поиска. Внимание - наша единственная награда. 

Это абсолютная истина, каждый автор хочет признания.

Делать что то лучше других и не иметь признания, противоречит законам развития человечества.

[Wayneo]

29 minutes ago, Skit said:

My suggestion is to have a weekly hand picked panel by the staff since you guys will be monitoring the posts anyway. This panel will not allow ANY post to go on there twice in a row.

The core issue is that devs feel like their work is not appreciated and a system that actively buries and punishes new themes that are well polished (never needs to updated and therefore shown to new people)!

Man, we're just 3 volunteers. We do have the ability to 'pin' a Theme, and we 3 decided to pin one, when we saw this crap getting out of hand to bring a little recognition to a good helpful designer who also has a good theme. Just click the Downloads link. Not theme park or anything. That's been there a while and should be refreshed. It shows as 'Featured Downloads'. I really don't think we 3 inspect, verify, use many different themes. Maybe change the default?

[Skit]

Indeed. There is major rework needed to this forum!

@Wayneo

I know you have said you try to keep your hands off from the community but I don't think that is the way. In doing so you have lost the "human" bit to your moderator role. In doing so you are almost like a "deity" or "god" of some sort. Not knowing what the common humans get up to.

I really think you should get more involved in the community

[Wayneo]

Chrome's translate does not work when a singular post contains 2 non English languages, so I've been back and forth manually. Just asking if you guys wouldn't mind doing one translation to English on your end. Please.

[CMK]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Wayneo:

Just asking if you guys wouldn't mind doing one translation to English on your end. Please.

Okay, kein Problem. 

Okay, no problem. 

😁

[Wayneo]

7 minutes ago, Skit said:

I know you have said you try to keep your hands off from the community but I don't think that is the way. In doing so you have lost the "human" bit to your moderator role. In doing so you are almost like a "deity" or "god" of some sort. Not knowing what the common humans get up to.

I really think you should get more involved in the community

Holy jeebus. Once a user creates a theme, reviews can only be commented on by the theme owner for it to stay intact. Occasionally one of us will comment back to the user if it's a somewhat abandoned theme. Reviews are more like a personal conversation with the author. In the regular forum, here, all 3 moderators are very involved. I think I've only ever commented on two or three themes before this incident.

Wouldn't a bad review from a moderator on any of your themes really really piss you off? 

[zark]

6 minutes ago, Wayneo said:

Разве плохой отзыв модератора на любую из ваших тем действительно не разозлит вас? 

А разве хорошего отзыва модератора получить нельзя?😂😂

[CMK]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb Wayneo:

Würde Sie eine schlechte Bewertung eines Moderators zu einem Ihrer Themen nicht wirklich wirklich verärgern? 

Ich kann nur für mich persönlich sprechen - Ich würde diese Kritik besonders ernst nehmen, wäre aber nicht verärgert; ich ginge von einer objektiven Kritik aus. Selbst hat man einen verklärten Blick auf das eigene Theme. 

I can only speak for myself personally - I would take this criticism particularly seriously, but I wouldn't be angry; I would start from an objective criticism. You yourself have a glorified view of your own theme.

[Wayneo]

Guys seriously, way way way back on Page 1 I referred to @zark as the unofficial theme critique master. Like you, I really only use 1 theme, mine. A warmed over tweaked, colorized version of the default. I just wanna vape. I don't want a bunch of useless shit on the screen unless I'm having a problem. I've used 'clean colors' when that very helpful designer was new, mainly to steal the font. I've used Mr.Bottomfeeder's to help with all the English translations, and the native English 'about section'. Another good theme, worthy of being 'featured'. But I always gravitate back to my own.

I see visual creativity in everything by SirTimmy, but I'd say, 1 has been on my mod for about 5 minutes. Nothing wrong with it, just not my style.

Seriously, beauty and creativity is different for everyone based on their likes and needs. I see many get a good review and it's all about the cool wallpaper. Here, I'll load up Gwyar's soon.

[CMK]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Wayneo:

I just wanna vape. I don't want a bunch of useless shit on the screen unless I'm having a problem

Das war auch meine Herausforderung - beide Anforderungen in einem Theme zu vereinigen (auch wenn ich es anders formuliert hätte) 

 That was also my challenge - to combine both requirements in one theme (even if I would have phrased it differently) 

[Wayneo]

@gwyar When a post contains both German and Ukrainian, or both German and Russian, Chrome cannot translate both to English easily. It's manual for me. (Any one) and English is easy. I appreciate you doing when it's just German and English, but not necessary. From a 'work' perspective, I think it's quicker (time wise) for me to do it.

[zark]

guys, no offense, but it seems to me that we started to lose the main idea of this thread. We need a change, and we are switching to a lyrical conversation about which design is better. let's forget personal grudges and preferences. it is necessary to develop a general strategy of behavior for the future.

[Wayneo]

Every theme on that front page, TOP PANEL, I'M GONNA GIVE THE COUNT ON THE THEME FOR THE PRIOR DAY, MAYBE AS A REVIEW OR A COMMENT. When a NEW theme shows up, I'll do a deep dive how it got there, starting on the 21st. 

Download Stats for April 16, 2021 Sorted alphabetically. Users named.

@ Commodoretheme. Downloads 1.
@ Frank65theme. Downloads 9.
@ Khaled shehabtheme. Downloads 1
@ Mr. Bottomfeedertheme. Downloads 4
@ Skittheme. Downloads 5
@ Stepladdertheme. Downloads 3
@ zarktheme. Downloads 0

Yearly TOP panel. Unnamed downloads
Example 1 theme. Downloads 3
Example 2 theme. Downloads 3
Example 3 theme. Downloads 13

Summary: No spammy downloads at all for any of the named 7, plus 3 unnamed.
* 2 registered forum users went around 'theme collecting' and showed up on these stats more than once.

[Wayneo]

Every theme on that front page 'TOP PANEL', I'll GIVE THE COUNT ON THE THEME FOR THE PRIOR DAY, MAYBE AS A REVIEW OR A COMMENT.  When a NEW theme shows up, I'll do a deep dive of how it got there, starting on the 21st. 

Download Stats for April 17, 2021 Sorted alphabetically.  Users named.

@  Commodoretheme.  Downloads 1
@  Frank65theme.  Downloads 3
@  Khaled shehabtheme.  Downloads 3
@  Mr.  Bottomfeedertheme.  Downloads 0
@  Skittheme.  Downloads 11
@  Stepladdertheme.  Downloads 3
@  zarktheme.  Downloads 3

Yearly TOP panel.  Unnamed downloads
Example 1 theme.  Downloads 4
Example 2 theme.  Downloads 3
Example 3 theme.  Downloads 5

Summary:  No spammy downloads for any of the named 7, plus 3 unnamed .

[Mr.Bottomfeeder]

Hello my dear friends,

Since I received a message that I was named on this thread, I read this discussion.

I am still wondering the reason behind the download numbers scam since the day I was first notified of fake theme downloads.

In my opinion it makes absolutely no sense to manipulate the own download counters or those of someone else.

Just because some Honk was having fun to downloading my theme 300 times in one day, now I have to subtract these 300 downloads from my counter in order to get my honest download numbers.
Why do some people do that? This is completely devoid of logic and reason.

I am happy when some vapers use and like my theme - it is an endorsement for me that I have designed my theme in such a way that it is useful.
But these download numbers should represent the actual users (or at least the earlier testers) and not be science fiction numbers.
With that, the people who try to annoy us only damage the reputations of the serious authors of themes.

Perhaps a time limit would be worth considering - e.g. only allow one download per IP every 5 minutes.
Because after doing an download, the serious user must first install the downloaded theme onto his mod and then test the theme.
During this time, however, there is no need to download any other themes.
By this limitation, the download cheaters could only carry out a total of 12 download fakes per hour at all.

What I would like and wish however:
More critics, suggestions and ratings from users to improve my topic, as I no longer have own ideas for subsequent updates.
Therefore, I would not object to a mandatory rating after downloading and testing a theme.
However, I don't know whether and how this could be implemented.
Perhaps a solution could be to only allow further theme downloads after a rating for the last downloaded theme has been given.

Wish all to have a fine rest of weekend and stay health all together

Kind regards

Hubert

 

[Skit]

4 hours ago, Mr.Bottomfeeder said:

Perhaps a solution could be to only allow further theme downloads after a rating for the last downloaded theme has been given.

I think this is a rather elegant solution as it not only gives us higher quality themes but also stops the spam.

I don't think personally this should be the case. The user experience is going to heavily impacted via this method. Sure, one theme every 5 minutes is good enough for most users. But a new user who has just bought a DNA board would have to sit there for a long time before they could find a theme that suits them. I personally went through at least 5 before I found one that I stuck with for a while. That would turn a simple 5 minute browse into a long 25 minute waiting game.

Furthermore, IP collisions are rare but do happen. Not just from the same household but sometimes large institution such as university or work place. It does happen. Some users may also use a VPN for a number of reasons, this would block them from using the website.

I think this is a good idea but just impractical in practice. Perhaps only have the limitation for guests without an account? Even then I think it's bit too draconian to force a user to review something. We will only end up with pointless reviews and one word comments. Only via natural ways can you get real genuine feedback.

If you want real change you must change the ground works and then it will follow naturally. I've gotten much more feedback since I added a google form to my own theme because I wanted real feedback. I didn't do by via raising the walls for everyone else and forcing them to before they could download another theme. I did so by lowering the effort taken to leave me a comment.

[Mr.Bottomfeeder]

@ all:
I have never downloaded one of my themes by myself, nor have I commissioned others to do so.
Only once - about 1 1/2 years ago, I had to download exactly one of my themes - after unfortunately one of my original files was gone lost.
I also never write reviews or comments for my own themes.
I only publish updates when I have made real changes to my themes (I always list the changes what are new made in the description).
With the updates, I even combine necessary and occurring description changes and additions.
All this so that nobody can say that I would push my own themes.
I am writing this here very clearly in case anyone suspects I am doing something dishonest.
Because something like that would certainly not be my way of life.
I am proud to be an honest person - and to remain so.

@Skit

I am also a programmer, but not with Java and / or Html.
So I am not familiar with website construction and programming.

However, I don't understand why someone should download a theme and not install and test it on his mod.
When I download a theme, I spend at least half an hour on that theme before downloading another theme.
I look at the structure in the theme designer and install the theme on one of my mods.
Then I test the theme in operation to see how and if this is useful.
However, you are right - with several PCs in a LAN this can lead to unwanted restrictions.

I really miss the interaction between users and writers here.
Because in my opinion a theme can only grow from a certain point if suggestions and requests comes from the actual users, which the author can then implement accordingly.
I develop my themes as well as watch faces for Samsung Smartwatches in my spare time and don't want earn any money with selling them.
I do that for the reason that I write these programs primarily for myself and when they are finished so that others may enjoy them.
So I don't want to make it harder to handle than it is.
Therefore, I don't see any real point in using a foreign commentary system if Evolv already offers one.

But I also see the need to harden the download area.
Even where it doesn't really matter to me if and where my theme is listed.
But because of the fairness to the honest authors.