TCR mode for the DNA chipset

[Peter_Silie]

Hello,

Did anybody ask for a plain TCR mode that allows to freely set a value?

I mean: to set a TCR value within the device and use it as a special mode.

I know that I can create a TFR in Escribe with one value only, using the value "actions edit thing". That's not what I want, because that value is nailed down to that Value and cannot be changed without using the computer again.

Background: I am working on the creation of clapton style wires that provide a better TC ability than common wires actually have.

[CMK]

EVOLV has developed the "REPLAY" function to save such setting work. For anything but simple wires outside of laboratory conditions, TC control is always only a questionable approximation; The control works, but the calculated temperature is like a weather report.

At least that's my opinion and experience.

[Wayneo]

You cannot set or create the TCR of any material 'on the mod'
The material (wire) has a TFR or TCR, NOT a specific coil.

You can use steam-engine 'wire wizard' to simulate a build of your materials and coil once, and that will show the TCR value in the 'TCR in vaping range' field.

IF you're gonna use these coils strictly with color DNA mods Replay offers dry hit protection and more. That TCR value benefits non color DNAs or any other mod.

Replay DOES NOT require ANY material profile.

[BillW50]

1 hour ago, Peter_Silie said:

Did anybody ask for a plain TCR mode that allows to freely set a value?

I have to admit, this would be a very welcomed profile. After all, many non-DNA mods have it.

Although @gwyar does have a point. You can skip TFR/TCR values if you use Replay in Power Mode. Although you do give up a temperature reading.

[BillW50]

You can create a material from a TCR from EScribe from the materials tab. Select add and then select the new material and click on the Actions button.

 

[Peter_Silie]

@BillW50 thank you for your agreement .

And yes, as I just said: I'm aware of this workaround, that results to just another fixed wire profile with a linear relation, then.

[Peter_Silie]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb gwyar:

EVOLV has developed the "REPLAY" function to save such setting work. For anything but simple wires outside of laboratory conditions, TC control is always only a questionable approximation; The control works, but the calculated temperature is like a weather report.

At least that's my opinion and experience.

The REPLAY function is quite nice, but  I'm sorry to say: It's just another workaround.

The reason for questionable results in TC mode is caused by the poor wire material that we are provided with.

Lets see what we have: SS316, Titanium, Nickel and some materials with more or less similar properties.

Nickel: way too low resistance but very good TCR
Titanium: good TCR but get's brittal when heated to much and hard to find.
SSL316: good material but very low TCR
Kanthal, Ni80 and friends: Zero TCR, not any TC capability.

The most popular TC material that is available is just SSL316. And you are completely right, the results are questionable.

You will get a better or even similar control of the output power when simple using the power mode.

I can say from my experience: TCR below 200 will lead into results that you call weather report and you are right.

So we need better wire materials and that's what I'm working on.

[Peter_Silie]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Wayneo:

You cannot set or create the TCR of any material 'on the mod'
The material (wire) has a TFR or TCR, NOT a specific coil.

You can use steam-engine 'wire wizard' to simulate a build of your materials and coil once, and that will show the TCR value in the 'TCR in vaping range' field.

IF you're gonna use these coils strictly with color DNA mods Replay offers dry hit protection and more. That TCR value benefits non color DNAs or any other mod.

Replay DOES NOT require ANY material profile.

that is why I want to change the Firmware 😄

Replay is for housewifes - Sorry I'm just kidding 🤣

There is often a missunderstanding in the difference beween TFR und TCR. The DNA does only work with TFR that consits of (almost) 6 TCRs.
The TFR is a value table that should help the controller to calculate the temperature of materials that temperature-resistance-relation is  a non-linear function.

We would come to much more repeatable and precise results if we had more materials with the properties of Titanium (or similar) with a serios TCR about 300-400

Only one single TCR would do the job more precise and the calculation would be easier and faster, too.

[CMK]

So I'm sorry, but I have to disagree on a few points.
Even if I'm not a physicist, just an observer:
- The temperature coefficient of a material changes as soon as it is processed into a coil. Large diameter / small diameter, spaced or non-spaced. Even the shape of the wire cross-section plays a role.

Precisely because I'm not a physicist, I ask (myself) what I want to achieve with temperature control when vaping, I speak for myself:
- I want a consistent taste experience
- - regardless of the temperature of the environment, of the evaporator
-. I want to avoid a dryhit

Even if I manage to master all influencing factors and parameters, I finally want to know what this effort was for. I then know that this batch of this liquid in this vaporizer with this coil tastes best for me personally at 235 ° C in the sunshine in the shade of a maple. But only when the wind comes from the west. Otherwise I need 239 ° C.

REPLAY is not a workaround - REPLAY is a blessing.

[CMK]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb Peter_Silie:

The REPLAY function is quite nice, but  I'm sorry to say: It's just another workaround.

 

vor 2 Minuten schrieb gwyar:

REPLAY is not a workaround - REPLAY is a blessing.

 

[Peter_Silie]

@gwyarThank you for your answer. Let's take a closer look.

vor 11 Stunden schrieb gwyar:

The temperature coefficient of a material changes as soon as it is processed into a coil

Sorry but that is not true. The TCR is a constant that depents on the material, and decribes how much the resistance of the material changes when it is heated.
That does NOT depend on the shape of the material neither on the location. It is always the the same under a maple or beneeth an oak and even on mars.

As wayneo said: steam-engine 'wire wizard' gives a good overview, any physicist table book will give the same information.

Your expectations on using TC are exacly the same as mine.

The problems that you achive are the same as mine, too.

The reason for that is, that we don't have the right material for a proper TC setup. We should have more wire material like titanium.

The  reason for most problems that we have with TC is, that we don't have much choices on the material. In most cases we use SSL316 or similar, right?

I try to explain: SSL has a TCR about 80, very low. Even though the DNA has a very presice measuring circuit, the resolution of that is NOT infinite.

When looking to your cold resistance adjustment, you see that the smallest value, you can set  is 0,001Ohm. That's the border of the resolution. (simplified)
I made the picture to show what happens when you apply the same resolution (deltaR) to different TCR.
You can see, that on low TCR, the deltaT value increases, that means when the controller calculates the value, a huge range of temperatures match to the same resistance (simplified again)

The red graph represents materials like SLL316, the blue graph is for something like titanium or nickel.
It is schematic and not symmetic, but you will get the idea...

[Peter_Silie]

PS: I forgot to say: Replay is quiet fine, but does not solve the problem.
The result (and inaccuracy) is affected by the same resolution limit of resistance measuring.

Indeed it's a blessing to aviod messing arround with cold resistance and TCR values and so on.
But it may keep us away from understanding how it works. Replay is NOT the solution.

[CMK]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Peter_Silie:

Thank you for your answer. Let's take a closer look.

vor 15 Stunden schrieb gwyar:

The temperature coefficient of a material changes as soon as it is processed into a coil

Sorry but that is not true. The TCR is a constant that depents on the material, and decribes how much the resistance of the material changes when it is heated.
That does NOT depend on the shape of the material neither on the location. It is always the the same under a maple or beneeth an oak and even on mars.

You are bringing together two separate and independent statements from me - this is dishonest.

To the TCR, I said, I'm not a physicist, just an observer. And I observe that a coil burns out from the inside out, that means that it heats up more in the middle - certainly a question of cooling, but at which point does the coil have the calculated temperature? I don't know anyone who uses a straight wire to vape - mesh would be interesting in this context.

The second part of my statement clearly related to the question of what knowledge I gain by knowing the exact (!) Temperature of my coil. In my opinion none, apart from the urge to research.

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Peter_Silie:

PS: I forgot to say: Replay is quiet fine, but does not solve the problem.
The result (and inaccuracy) is affected by the same resolution limit of resistance measuring.

Indeed it's a blessing to aviod messing arround with cold resistance and TCR values and so on.
But it may keep us away from understanding how it works. Replay is NOT the solution.

As you can see for yourself, REPLAY is a fine thing in view of the imponderables such as measurement accuracy, wire quality, etc.

On the subject of gaining knowledge, I think - it's just my suspicion, of course - that most vapers don't really care how it works. They are happy to have no more dry hits and not have to bother with the described problems of TC mode - they don't want to.

[Peter_Silie]

 

vor 2 Stunden schrieb gwyar:

this is dishonest

sorry, why do you feel that?

I just tried to explain where most problems come from. A good working TC would be so important for new users because it prevent them from vaping too hot or too cold and to aviod dry hits as well.

There are several reasons why we want to have good TC and should have it set up right. We need good coil materials that lets you make your coil like "10 wraps on 3,5mm, TCR400, 220degC, ready"

and that leads to the same result all over the world. Under the Maple tree with a light breeze from west as good as during winter time.

Before we lean back and state: " I don't care, I use Replay..." , we should ask why they sell us that poor SSL stuff only.

[CMK]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb Peter_Silie:

sorry, why do you feel that?

Because you linked two completely independent statements - but it doesn't matter now.

vor 6 Minuten schrieb Peter_Silie:

We need...

Who is we? I think a lot of people are satisfied with the situation - you hear from a lot of people "TC mode? I don't need it, I set my wattage and it's good ..."

vor 6 Minuten schrieb Peter_Silie:

...lets you make your coil like "10 wraps on 3,5mm, TCR400, 220degC, ready"

Are all liquids the same, do all liquids taste the same to me at the same temperature? Or is it not rather that I vape different liquids at (slightly) different temperatures?
So I put my coil in and after two or three puffs I have a good setting, save the puff and that's it.

For the power spectrum that the DNA250C is able to cover (we're talking about a maximum of 400W!), You can't avoid setting a basic power in spite of TC mode. Of course there are mods that have a fixed start value - but they don't cover such a range of services.

 

I think it is better if at least both of us acknowledge that we do not come together in our expectations of the "experience" of vaping.
And I realized for myself that just observation is not always enough: well-founded knowledge is just - well - knowledge is just.

[retird]

Well, as 1 who has used SS316L "Notch Coils" for years and many moons ago fine truned the vape in TC I enjoy the consistant vape in TC and Reply.  No fiddling with making coils, adjusting TC Profile and etc. 

An Example:    https://www.fasttech.com/products/0/10014736/9623837-mkws-316l-stainless-steel-notch-coil-10-pack

 

[CMK]

vor 32 Minuten schrieb retird:

An Example:    https://www.fasttech.com/products/0/10014736/9623837-mkws-316l-stainless-steel-notch-coil-10-pack

Definitely looks super interesting - to me, I've never heard or seen anything about it.
I will definitely look to see if this is also available in my size ... MTL ... Small ... For a year now I have been with DL for once, or more than 35W.

[retird]

7 minutes ago, gwyar said:

Definitely looks super interesting - to me, I've never heard or seen anything about it.
I will definitely look to see if this is also available in my size ... MTL ... Small ... For a year now I have been with DL for once, or more than 35W.

I do MTL and DL just a bit.... .... TC and Replay....

Just got a DL 28mm RTA to experiment with dual "notch coils" ???? 

[CMK]

vor 27 Minuten schrieb retird:

I do MTL and DL just a bit.... .... TC and Replay....

Just got a DL 28mm RTA to experiment with dual "notch coils" ???? 

Holy shit - where are you going to experiment with this? In an 80s discotheque? Or on the film set for the next "The Fog"? My steam clouds are enough for me with restrictive DL between 12 and 20 watts ...
I don't get it, from 50 watts it actually gets sporty, the clouds also want to be breathed away first, but that has nothing to do with enjoyment, right?
But okay, some take it sporty - if there wasn't a market, there would be no corresponding atomizer and battery mod. Everyone as they like it.

[retird]

16 minutes ago, gwyar said:

Holy shit - where are you going to experiment with this? In an 80s discotheque? Or on the film set for the next "The Fog"? My steam clouds are enough for me with restrictive DL between 12 and 20 watts ...
I don't get it, from 50 watts it actually gets sporty, the clouds also want to be breathed away first, but that has nothing to do with enjoyment, right?
But okay, some take it sporty - if there wasn't a market, there would be no corresponding atomizer and battery mod. Everyone as they like it.

LOL.... Not interested in clouds or fog here but wondering if duals and very short puffs  would have an effect on flavor...  can always just use 1 coil.... 

[Lisko]

I just want to add that to my experience of exclusive tc vaper for some years the best material I found is the nife 48 by zvipf that is called alloy 52 on steam-engine (the name is different because zvipf measures the quantity of Ni and steam-engine the one of the alloy). Pretty high tc precision, easy to work with, gives coils not ridiculously low and no bad tastes. If you haven't already tried it, give it a chance.

I also want to add that most problems with ss316l and the dnas don't come alone from the low tc precision and low resolution (that in a dna 250c is much more higher than .001 ohm luckily) but it's this combined to the fact that being an alloy not all the ss316l are the same, they can contain the same materials but in different percentages making the tcr/tfr curves not standard and different by maker to maker which leads to inconsistent results. A dna 250c with a good known tfr is perfectly capable of having a good precision on ss316l.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Lisko