Atomizer Analyzer - override ohms

[vaporlips]

While within the atomizer analyzer, I clicked "override ohms" and a window pops up and asks' me to input the ohms.  I input the ohms, exactly what atomizer analyzer was reading.  (For some reason the device was reading .12 and I knew the coil was .09, which is what escribe said it was whilst in atomizer analyzer.)

After overriding the ohms, my device first displays a 0.00 resistance with the lock next to it, and then shortly after the device will display whatever resistance it's reading from the coil.  The issue is, when I do this I can't vape at all.  The temperature protection is kicking in instantly.   Usually if the displayed resistance is off a little, you can still get a little bit of a vape before it hits temp protect, but with whatever this override ohms does it makes the device think it's hitting the set temperature instantaneously.   I can not get any vape whatsoever because it's just so instant to hit temp limit.  

After disconnecting my device, and exiting escribe, the problem continued.  I could not vape whatsoever.  I tried unlocking the ohms on the device, as well as locking them again but nothing helped.  What solved the issue was putting a kanthal build atty on the device, it then fired as usual.  Put the original nickel coil atty back on, and now everything is working beautifully again.  

Just to confirm as well, I can see the display on the device is set to 440F.  This atty has always been just fine for me.  Atomizer analyzer also confirms that the resistance is steady.

 I have the latest updates for Escribe, as well as dna200 firmware.  I have an 11.1 volt 1000 maH 30C LiPo battery.    

[AllenH]

I'm glad someone else brought this up.  In my situation I can fire the initial fire, but then I almost immediately get over temp protection warnings... this is particularly bad in situations of short puffs and frequent puffs.  I have a hard time believing we're getting up very high temp- I thought I read some instances of 500-600F even though almost no firing was occurring.

Another thing I've noticed is a consistently increasing resistance... a coil that was reading 0.08 was jumping up to 0.31 during firing.  I find that hard to believe.

Thank you for mentioning this VaporLips- I've been experiencing similar issues.  The refinement problem I'm experiencing is different, and I haven't played with it today recently.  I'll try to create a new thread on the refinement problem.  But the locked ohms and instant temp increase I'm also seeing it appears.

My build is dual coils, total resistance reading around 0.08 ohms.  The analyzer is saying "?" for cold ohms for some reason.  I'm running around 60 watts (also experienced at 115- but got a horrible dry hit from it earlier today, so had to turn it down) - temp protection was set at 450F (now I set it at 230C)  Ohms locked at 0.08.  When the ohms wasn't locked, resistance was hitting above 0.30 ohms from 0.08.  [resistance was stable in analyzer earlier] - that caused the horrible dry hit for me earlier.  So, something with this new firmware is going wonky.

Hope we can get to the bottom of this somehow.

RDA = CiGreen Arrows RDA
Coil = dual vertical coil, 28ga Ni200, 10 turns on approx. 0.3mm, 0.081 resistance in analyzer
Mod = Evolv Beta Mod,  latest firmware as of 07/11/15
eliquid = Adirondack Vapor Delta, Max VG
System= Mac OsX 10.10.4 running Parallels desktop 10.2, Windows 10 pre-release

[John]

If the atomizer analyzer is showing a question mark, it doesn't think that the atomizer is connected. Can you screenshot a graph of power, temperature, cold ohms and live ohms as you fire and post that here?

[AllenH]

That's weird- because it was actively reading the resistance with the analyzer. I'll take a screen cap of that. Also if I can, I'll do a live fire recording and screen cap also. Thanks!!

[vaporlips]

Mine would display the correct resistance on screen as well.  Never saw the question mark.  It's just after I override ohms , the device just thinks it's hitting 600F instantly.  Even though the atomizer analyzer is still showing the correct resistance, which obviously is not changing enough to be in the 600F range....

 

I will also try to get you some screen shots/ screen capture video.

[AllenH]

Hi Vaporlips - yes that's exactly the type of thing I was seeing as well.  I saw it ramp up on screen to 500 then 600 I think!  I was quite shocked, and of course it was only outputting 0.1 Watts at that point and hit temp protect practically immediately.

[AllenH]

Ugh- just tried to reproduce it, and it appears to be operating correctly now. Appears to be intermittent- I'll have to catch it when it's acting up.

[vaporlips]

I just reproduced it, and caught the whole thing on video/screen capture.  Encoding the video, and will be uploading shortly.  The exact same thing happened.  No need to explain anymore, I recorded the computer screen, and also had a live feed camera of my dna200 device as well (on the screen).  Should be clear if I am doing something incorrectly, or what the problem is.

[vaporlips]

Here's a video recording of the whole event. 

I would love to hear if there was anything I am doing incorrectly, or what comes from this. 

Thank you!

[AllenH]

Hi Vaporlips and everyone,

Thanks for that video!  Yes, that's very similar to what I was experiencing.  Interestingly, I think you were having the cold-ohms question mark also- I'll have to go back in and look at the video (before the Kanthal build).  A few notes- it appears you're running on a windows machine, which is good- that confirms it's not the system software.  Second- I experienced this without removal of the atomizer in lock mode.  If I did remove the atomizer and replace it, I always said old coil when asked.  I just can't remember the series of steps to get the harsh hit- it appears you got one, but it might be due to changing the atomizer head without unlocking ohms?  Not sure if the board detects it should change everything... when I say new coil, it certainly unlocks the ohms for me (just couldn't tell if that was going on in the video for you).

I did just experience something that may be proper operation, but reminiscent of this.  Well... I'm fairly sure it's not proper operation... I got good vape for a bit, then hit temp protect (on the DNA40, I'm used to vaping through that to finish up the eliquid and start to dry out the cotton- LOL- only device that can do that!)... Then after the initial temp protection hit, I was immediately hitting the temp again.  So, I couldn't "work through" the temp protect and dry out the cotton more.  It can't possibly be all dry, and there's no way it's staying at 230 C (446 F).  I would expect it to drop at least a little.  I was able to save the graph for that.

Another interesting tidbit- but may be related to my OsX/Parallels/Win10Prev is that the system acknowledged the device when I plugged it in to catch the behavior.. but then the device refused to talk to the system.  I was able to rectify this by using another usb port on the other side of my laptop- so I am chalking that up to the system and not the device.

So, very similar experiences, but I didn't change atomizers, and also running different Os.  Oh- nice to see you using a tank also, I was using dual coal rda, however, at similar ohmage 0.081.

I'm going to try and get the 600+ temps again if possible, then revert to the old firmware to see if I experience the same thing.  [Although all this occurred within a few days of upgrading the firmware for me.]

Yup- just tried to take a vape again after a long time cooling (took a shower) and it still says it's hitting 230... so something's off.

[vaporlips]

Just to clarify - the video is demonstrating only that my device was hitting temp limit extremely fast.  It may appear that I got a burnt hit in the video, but I did not.  The "burnt hits" I got really could be due to a whole list of different causes, and I am not describing that as a symptom of "this bug". 

[AllenH]

Hi Vaporlips!  I agree- I can't add the burnt hits to this list either right now.  I need to reproduce it, and glad to hear that one wasn't one!

So, just like you, I can't get vapor after say the initial temp protection kicks in... even a few moments pause, then re-hit, nothing- hits temp protect immediately.

Thanks for the video!!  I'll be upping a graph of my temp protect hits soon.

[AllenH]

Been trying to use the DNA200 for the last few days here exclusively and this temp-protect thing is killing me.  Making for very frustrated vaping.  I get one puff, then have to wait a few minutes, then another puff... something is wrong with temp sensing with the ohms locked.

[James]

Hmm. I will look into this.

Just out of curiosity though, why are you needing Ohm lock at all for normal vaping?
(Much less Override Ohms, which is for an even more specific case, and really for testing?)

Incidentally, what Atomizer Analyzer shows large the raw Ohms, not the 70 Fahrenheit (cold) ohms.

[AllenH]

Hi James- I should say that this bug has gotten a bit complex since Vaporlips submitted it.  We're both describing an ohms locked temp protection problem (see vaporlips earlier posts), and I also see a cold ohms ? in the atomizer analyzer.  But the temp protection is such a problem that we should probably start a different thread about it.  Also- I'm not using override ohms.  [And all functionality should be working regardless, right?]  I am however using ohm lock, because I've had issues with ohms going crazy and changing the vape.

[James]

Incidentally, in your video... when you switched to Kanthal, it removed the Ohm lock?

[James]

AllenH, when are the Ohms changing exactly? Atomizer Analyzer shows raw (not cold) resistance, so when the coil is hot it will show a higher resistance.

Or are yours all over the place while the atomizer is completely cold?
Locking Ohms will cause it to ask you less about whether it's a new coil, but it cannot fix the underlying problem if your cold Ohms are bouncing all over the place.
That would indicate a bad connection, most likely.

[AllenH]

Hi James,

Ok, I've complicated things un-necessarily here, I apologize.  I was attempting to give as much information as possible.  I wanted to lock ohms because I was getting that standard creep with refinement seen in DNA40.  At this time I think it may also be related to a bad hit I've had in the past (hence wanting to stop it) - but for now I can't say that it is.  However, here are the issues that I see currently (at least one of them is similar to vaporlips):

1) With ohms locked, temp protection kicks in immediately after the first vape.  Can practically not get a single vape after that initial temp protection.
2) related to (1) I sometimes see the locked ohms changing, even though they are locked. (hard to reproduce and catch)
3) related to (1) I sometimes see temp in temp-protection mode with ohms locked jump up to 600 F etc. (certainly not real temps) (also hard to reproduce and catch)
4) (I think I saw the same thing on vaporlips screen, but can't be sure) - in Atomizer Analyzer, if my ohms are locked previously, I can get no cold-ohms reading showing up- only a "?" appears in the "cold ohms" designated spot in the Atomizer Analyzer.

Other things that have happened that likely need a different thread:
5) An insanely hot and dry vape that practically exploded in my mouth with a vape - however, I have been unable to reproduce this at this time.

I recently updated the firmware to the latest firmware as of 7/13/15, and I have noticed that with Ohms *Unlocked* temp protection is working well, and I can vape through a good portion of remaining e-liquid on the cotton.  This is what makes for an enjoyable device!  However, this is definitely not the experience with Ohms Locked! (see the above, as well as vaporlips video)

[vaporlips]

Allen,

When we are locking the ohms,  I was assuming that the purpose of this is to lock the ohms on the display, as well as locking the cold "resting rate" resistance for our atomizer.

Is this what that ohm lock is designed to do?

OR!

Is it literally locking the ohms on our device so that the board it self see's absolutely no change in resistance while we are vaping.  Which in turn, if working properly would eliminate the function of temperature controlled vaping.

Either way, it doesn't seem to be working correctly.

I am loving my DNA200 regardless.  Thank you Evolv.

[AllenH]

Hi Vaporlips!

I don't think the intended result is that it kills temp protection... I suspect it only removes refinement.  So, once read, the ohms are kept/locked, and then future changes to resistance are used to calculate the temp.  However, since temp protection works by way of the change of resistance with heat, I'm now wondering if there's a problem with the temp calculation with the ohms locked.

Going to send you a note about your experiences here in pm - I'm experiencing a few more things that have got to be bugs- wondering if you have also.

-A

[James]

What do you mean by standard creep in refinement, by the way? If your connection is good, your resistance should be more or less stable. How far is it moving?

Incidentally for the beta we did make a custom 510 connector because we found some 510s had abominable resistance stability (also, 200W sustained is too much for many).

[KTMRider]

I've had at most a .01? fluctuation in resistance in any of my DNA40's (VS rDNA40, VS DNA40, Hana V4, 3 built with VT 510's) and I know it's my atomizers (KF v4's). If it moves more than that, it's your build, atomizer or 510 connector. 

[VapingBad]

Same as KTMRider, except for atties with aluminium 510 that need more regular cleaning or just plane poor atties (form a connection perspective).

[AllenH]

Hi guys!  Well, it certainly could be the atty here.  My dual coil ni200 28 ga wire builds are coming out around 0.08 ohms initially.  They often creep up to around 0.13 ohms (when things got crazy hot).  When I think I got my bad hit, it was showing 0.3 ohms.  I'd like to mention that I've also seen the ohms change even when locked.  So, even if my atty is at fault here, the ohms shouldn't creep up in that condition.

My last build on my RDA was tight, no screw slipping, even after vaping the night before.  After refinement in the evening with charging, that 0.08 had went up to 0.13, and was just not vapable in a non-locked ohm condition.  This is on the beta mod box.  I was getting burning tastes, which means the 230C the device was claiming was just not correct.  The RDA was heating very fast in that condition.  So, I retired the RDA for today's vaping.  Decided to use my subtank mini today with lower wattage, and it's been acting fine since I changed the RTA this morning (0.15 build on the RBA deck, single coil).  So, my RDA does appear to be worse at this than my RTA, but I haven't used my subtank before today, so we'll see if it experiences the same thing as my RDA.

Thanks for everyone's thoughts here.  I definitely understand this whole thing is a system, and that the chip can't control everything.  I do question the 230C issue... should it really be hitting so high and still claiming 230 on the board?  All coils are tight etc., and was cold from the overnight charge and overnight refinement.

[James]

AllenH, are you getting the 0.13 in the Atomizer Analyzer, or is it displaying that on-screen?

Cold Ohms are only shown when in TC. Kanthal displays live Ohms. This is a cosmetic difference -- if it has the wrong one, it should switch over quickly. Unrelated to Ohm lock generally, but I did find a bug in Atomizer Analyzer's Override Ohms, by the way, and we are testing a fix for that now. Good find.

Next time you leave it overnight, you could try logging refinement to see what it's getting. In Help->About, left click seven times on the Evolv logo. Then, go into Device Monitor. I'd log Sample Ohms, Sample Temp, Cold Ohms, and probably Board Temp and Pack Voltage for good measure. Have it Record to a CSV. Those should be able to tell you if the refinement is getting values that are at least consistent.

Another thing you might want to look at is resistance stability. Try going into Atomizer Analyzer and screwing in your atomizer. I actually tested an atomizer at one point where too loose *and* too tight would cause poor contact, and resistance would even change significantly over a quarter turn. Was eye-opening. Atomizer Analyzer'll sample it while you do that so you can play around and see if that's an issue.