LeeWB3

Here's 30W and 35W back to back. I hit pause in between so I could reset it to the other number and place both on one graph. You can see it's doing exactly what I say I don't like, i.e. dropping off fast at the end of the vape. I'll say, however that this is a Skyline and wicks on this RTA fail fast. It's still working OK at 27.5, but not as good as graph above. Let me rewick it and repost.

Well, that'll still work. Explains why I can't get it mighty close to what I need as a hard stop cutoff, but I generally want to run at enough less it'll still work.

I fully understand how the chips worked on DNA 250, 200, 166, 133, 75 and 60s. As I stated above, however, the DNA 75c works differently. On the old boards you were limited to a punch that if set too high could easily lead to a "bump" as it cutoff pre-heat power and reduced down to run power. If sufficiently bad you could feel it come and go. Here is an example graph of the old system using a VaporShark Vapor Flask DNA 133 with Squape X dual 3mm 8 wraps 0.4 mm SSV 62.5W / 470°F / 100W pre-heat / 10 Punch (it woulda hit temp if I had kept drawing): So, Evolv did us the favor of adding a pre-heat temp to the chip rather than just a punch. To make that work correctly they added the ability for the chip to throttle at that set pre-heat temp so it didn't have the little bump as it cut from preheat wattage to run wattage. So far, so good and that was an improvement. However, after using a DNA 75c for a while I realized that this had the effect of allowing me to get rid of the single worst thing about temperature control - excessive throttling. Here is the graph of what to me is an absolutely miserable vape (Hobo X Stab with a Skyline 3mm 8 wraps 0.5 SSV 35W / 470°F / 55W pre-heat / 7 punch: .. Note that this juice tastes best at 470°F, however, when you apply enough power to get it there it starts throttling from the initial 35W down to 20.3W. At 20.3W the experienced heat and vapor production has been cut to SUBSTANTIALLY less than when at the 35W level. It starts off "in your face" and I think "Wow, this is a great vape" and then it feels like someone is taking my cookies away from me as it dies off. However, this same Skyline setup will not dry hit or get uncomfortably hot until well north of 500 °F. So, with the new system I can set it up to do THIS on a BAR V3 DNA 75c, same atty and coil, 25W / 500°F / 55W / 470°F: Notice how it is throttling the pre-heat wattage to maintain the 470°F preheat during about half of the draw. However, instead of lowering wattage below the set wattage and dying off for the last third it just allows it to get warmer than the pre-heat temp of 470° and start rising to the set temp of 500°F. It still will prevent dry hits or getting TOO hot by the hard limit (i.e. set temp) of 500°F where it will do the same as current chips and cut power. I would much rather let it get warmer then the best temp range for flavor (470°F) rather than cut power so much it actually feels cool. This is why I did not care for early generations of TC and why I've ALWAYS tried to setup my vapes to where they didn't hit set temp until at least two thirds of the way into a puff. If you like a fairly short puff you will not notice this, but as your puff time increases you will increasing find that TC can pull enough power that you're not getting any vapor or heat. This prevents that.

James - Latest version is still not actually going to pre-heat temperature. It is proportional, so setting pre-heat at 430 hits a lower number (415) than setting at 460 (437). This is on a VapeDroid X1C2 with a Skyline with 6 wrap 0.6mm SSV coil. Settings for this trace are 27.5W / 480°F / 60W pre-heat / 460°F:

You need 0.0001-0.0002 during calibration to be accurate to 0.001 in use (rounding errors). There are clearly different levels of stability in atomizers, both in terms of how much they vary in cold and warm ohms. In my experience a Griffin is not as stable an atomizer for TC as some due to the velocity posts - they almost always expose the upper outside leg which allows it to heat at a different rate than the average of the coil. However, properly cooled with good, stable connections you should be able to get +/- 0.002 for cold ohms.

Only works if you have something you consider "standards" quality. Would be better if I had a few thousand dollars of reference equipment to measure atomizers down to the ten thousands of an ohm....

I have my VapeDroid X1D2 and HCigar VT75c with me and they are now set at 0.0084 and 0.0061, respectively. My recollection is that my two MKM BAR V3s are set at about 0.008 as well. That's determined by taking 6 atomizers (including one with just Kanthal), measuring their "Kanthal" ohms with the Hobo, measuring the "Raw" ohms with the device under test and calculating a mod resistance that minimizes the total % error. To confirm I then locked those resistances on a profile each on the Hobo and on the device under test and used Device Manager to compare vape temps reached while setup with wattage low enough I was not limited by set temp. The resulting charts matched up quite well. My pre-heat is definitely sufficient to reach the pre-heat temp. Using like 60W on an atomizer that needs about 30 to reach set temp once warm. I am certainly aware of how pre-heat settings have been used and thought of in the past. However, upon Evolv's introduction of the 75c, I have found an even better use for it. I now use preheat to bring me to the temp I want most of my puff to be at and use a reasonably elevated wattage to get there quickly. The chip is then really good about throttling power to simply maintain that temp right up until the wattage is decreased down to a minimum set value (aka the set power). At that point the unit allows the temperature to creep up as it needs to in order to maintain that minimum wattage right up until/unless the chip has to further limit power in order not to give me a dry hit or go uncomfortably hot. I find this is vastly better for me because I had previously found that long puffs at the temp I wanted to vape at could result in the last of the inhalation to feel cool as vapor production died off with low throttled wattages. Now it "fails to hotter" while still preventing me from getting too hot rather than just "throttles to cooler". This is certainly less power efficient, but MUCH more satisfying and consistent to me.

No, they are not sold anymore. I bought 2 secondhand, one of which had almost never been used. I have verified calibration using several means and believe i am VERY close so I can use it as my standard to compare other mods to.

I'm finding this version to read ohms significantly higher than all previous 75c firmware. This is the first version that actually needs a positive mod resistance offset to come into calibration with cold ohm readings from my well calibrated Hobo X Al. I believe it is vaping much more consistent with estimated temps from the prior chips. One thing I AM noticing, however, is that it is restricting temperature to LESS than what I have set for preheat. I.e. If I set preheat to maintain 470°F (with a run temp of 500°F) it will actually throttle to maintain 460°F instead. No matter where I set preheat it will not let temperature exceed about 475°F. And it's clearly throttling to do so....

The DNA75c is reading ohms quite differently than in previous versions. It's also reading them differently using different versions of the firmware. In comparing results to that generated by a well calibrated Hobo X Al, I had four 75c mods that WERE reading them significantly lower. I would have needed a negative mod resistance offset to actually calibrate the mods and that's not possible. The most recent early release firmware (SP5) is suddenly reading them quite a bit higher and using the same Hobo X comparison I'm now needing to use a mod resistance offset of around 0.008. The four mods are vaping quite a bit better now. There ARE some other issues with the new firmware, but for me it's been an improvement.

Can you expand on that? I'm not seeing it within the Theme Designer in SP4.2

Concur.

Case Analyzer now works differently and is giving _me_ MUCH more accurate results. If you manually tweak by lowering base value of case static, add in about 2 degrees for screen being lit and up the case connect value by about what you lowered base case static value by I can stay within a degree or so of thermometers near mod. Major improvement.

OK, how do I delete this post? The new SP and firmware clearly are calculating amps to be used with the CA numbers. And, the new CA is determining values that more or less work. They are not populating the case connect temp rise and I guess are rolling it into the static temp rise so room temp values don't EXACTLY match true ambient, but they are close enough now that my concern about seeing massively lower ambient temperatures (like 58 degF in a 72 degF room) while the unit is charging is more or less mute. Thanks, guys for fixing this!

I understand that the DNA75 and DNA75c boards cannot determine the charging amps due to limitations in the board. But why is Evolve reporting and using 0.750A? Yes, I understand that it might be hooked up to a fast charger at 1A or it might be connected to standard USB charger at approximately 0.5A and that's the average, but 0.750A is almost never going to be right. I wouldn't care what they report, but they are calculating ambient temperature offsets based on this 0.750A times the Case USB Charge Temp Rise field entered in °F/A and therefore getting the wrong temperature offset almost 100% of the time. It's what's making case analyzer so useless. I.e. If they find a charge temp rise of 38°F/A and multiply it by 0.750A the offset they are using is 19°F. Since I'm normally watching this on Device Manager and am hooked up to a computer outputting 0.5A, the correct offset would be 16. That's how you get such low reported ambient temperatures while charging. In actual fact, I'm generally finding it should actually be closer to 14.25 which is Charge Temp Rise * 0.5A from computer * 0.75 (why I don't know). Now, this is prior to the just released SP which I'm testing right now. James?

Case Analyzer (at least prior to the newest SP, which I'm testing) does not populate the Case USB Connect Temp Rise field. I haven't gotten my LV mod yet, but on the VapeDroid and on two BAR mods (stab wood) DNA 75c mods that field is around 2°F. Currently, the best way to set these (assuming CA still isn't working right) is to first put on or create a theme that shows you the room temperature. Let the mod set for 2+ hours in a place you KNOW the temperature (use two thermometers or something and average). The difference between what the mod room temp reports and the actual room temp should be placed in the Case Static Temperature Rise. That's the most important field of all because it's how the mod determines ambient when it's just sitting. Then hook up the mod to escribe and use the diagnostic disable usb charging feature in device manager. Let it sit for a good hour, again in a place you know the temperature of. The difference between room temperature and the mods reported room temperature should be placed in the Case USB Connect Temp rise field. Upon setting that field the ambient temperature reading will be right both when the mod is just sitting and when it's connect to computer but fully charged. The rest of the settings only matter when you're hooked to a charging source and actually charging. Evolve is incorrectly assuming you are charging at 0.750A and everything they do here is wrong. It's also hard to determine these values manually, so you're probably best off not resampling while you are actually charging.

Are you watching on device or in Escribe? Both ocassionally act kinda weird and kinda freeze at one room temp for a long time. Generally, however, if I am watching in Escribe's Device Monitor with Diagnostics/USB Charging Off and having clicked the view Board and Room Temperatures I can watch it as the room temperature slowly goes counts down. I set one device up with 10s case settings and it came down to the actual room temperature (or at least the best estimate it achieved) much faster. But YMMV a bit on this board. I think Evolv is still pretty actively working on the software as evidenced by the number of Escribe and Firmware releases they've been putting out recently.

I've figured out it doesn't. But conversation morphed into discussion about getting ambient temperature right through case thermals - which is still important when you resample (aka measure) your cold ohm readings.

Are your DNAs calibrated with older versions of Case Analyzer still tracking very close? Mine are. But new runs of case analyzer are coming up with super high "+" numbers. Like 30-38 where in older runs they'd be around 8-12. I am pretty sure they've changed the amount of amperage they charge the battery at during the case analyzer processes. And speculate that one or both of two things are happening 1) They are dividing by an incorrect number to get the °F/A reading and/or 2) They are assuming the heat built up by charging is linear with amperage (thus the °F/A nomenclature) but in fact you get reasonably close to as much heating with 0.250A as you do with something like 0.40A so the concept of that setting is wrong to start with. That's speculation, as stated, but regardless of why case analyzer is giving numbers that do not allow unit to correctly track ambient temperature for me. Do they for you with the newer versions? I'm going to try watching the full case analyzer run and set the °F/A setting to what it takes to get an ambient temperature board to offset down to actual ambient temperature and set the + value to how much the temperature goes up during the 30 minutes it's charging. That would not be a °F/A but from watching previous runs it's gonna be closer to 10°F +/- 2°F which is closer to what the case analyzer used to end up at when it actually set the mod correctly.

Resetting the mod by uploading new settings from escribe or disconnecting and reconnecting a battery will reset the room temperature to the board temperature. It will then slowly use the case thermal settings to work out what the actual room temperature is. The higher your seconds settings in case thermals are the longer it will take (but that works the other way as well in that having higher settings is correct if your board heats and cools slowly from room temperature changes).

I believe Lost Vapes did use the defaults for case thermals on the Therion 75c.. Maybe because the case analyzer is yielding incorrect results. Try the defaults or run the case analyzer and try those settings. But on either, start with a 1/2 charged battery, plug it in to computer and monitor what the mods reports the ambient temperature is. After about 30 minutes it'll start saying it's about 58°F in your 70°F room. The DNA 75s calibrated with older versions of the case analyzer would track very close to an actual ambient temp. I don't know if it's a bug with the case analyzer in newer versions of escribe or with the 75c, but it means it's a darn good thing the 75c doesn't automatically reset the ohms for you.....

Well, at least I'm not alone...

I read some responses from James discussing the case analyzer in the Ohms Too Low thread (which I find to be the case as well), so maybe this is a known issue. However, when I run case thermals I'm getting very high Case USB Charge Temperature Rises. This is leading to very cold, incorrect readings for room temperature while the unit is charging. I.e. I ran a case analyzer earlier today, uploaded the results and it's just finishing up the last 0.1V of charging. Board temp has fallen from the high 80s to low 90s while under full charge amperage to 76.57°F (in a 68°F room). Room temperature is being reported by unit as 58.71°F. I have tried case analyzers on multiple computers and consistently get similar results. Is case analyzer just not accurate at the moment?

A substandard or poorly engineered 510 will absolutely ruin TC vaping. I don't remember having problems of the magnitude you describe with my VT75, but it failed a while ago and I know more now than I did then. My VT75 Nano is working fine, albiet with a much higher mod resistance than most everything else in my shelf. Bet you like the Therion - I've enjoyed both the BF and the 133.

Have you done the case analyzer? My VT200, VT75 and VT75 Nano all came uncalibrated and that will cause exactly what you are describing. I no longer have the VT75 (juice got down in it and fried board) so I can't give you the proper values, but it ain't difficult to run if you have a thermometer and a place you can keep the temperature steady (steadier the better). I have a video on it on YouTube: