Technically, what are the differences between Boost Punch & Preheat Punch?

[mix11898]

First thing to mention is I have searched throughout the forum, but I still not clear in some points about the differences between these 2 features. I know that Boost is for the Watt Mode Only, while the Preheat is for Temp.

And to have more clear in detail, in these questions, I will talk about using the stainless steel only as it can use both in wattage and temp control mode.

My questions are

1.As Boost and Preheat both have 0-11 levels (soft - hard) (and yes, although preheat contains 1 decimal place), what is the real different If I set up like this

- Power Profile = 50 W + 11 Boost Punch
- Temp Profile = 50 W + 11 Preheat Punch + 70 Preheat Wattage (I will just leave the temperature here because I just want to know about the beginning of the puff)

Will it boost the same? or the real different here is the preheat wattage setting?

2.As there is no Preheat Time Limit like Black & White in the Colour Version. How long does the preheat actually do there work here?

3.I use SS316L Temp Mode with the Squape S (This RDA has 2 Airflow Options DL/MTL) I set the temperature at 420 F, and tried both Airflows: MTL with 20 W 0 Punch, while DL with 45 W 11 Punch.

After vaping, the last puff temperature showed me that MTL one Actually reached the 420 F, but with DL one, it never reach 420 F, but only just around 200-300. is there anything wrong with my TFR? or it is just because the less airflow the easier the coil get to the temperature?

4.Can we actually use Replay in Watt Modes?

[BillW50]

Yes, you can use Replay in wattage mode. But the material has to change resistance as it heats up.

Don't forget in TC mode, you can preheat with either by temperature or power (wattage).

[Wayneo]

1 hour ago, mix11898 said:

1.As Boost and Preheat both have 0-11 levels (soft - hard) (and yes, although preheat contains 1 decimal place), what is the real different If I set up like this

- Power Profile = 50 W + 11 Boost Punch
- Temp Profile = 50 W + 11 Preheat Punch + 70 Preheat Wattage (I will just leave the temperature here because I just want to know about the beginning of the puff)

Will it boost the same? or the real different here is the preheat wattage setting?

Boost Punch  (1-11) is a 1 second proportional extra watts before settling back to your set watts. Any material.

Preheat Punch (1-11) is only for Temp Sensing materials. The higher the number, the closer it gets to the Temperature set before ending Preheat settings.
So the preheat won't let your watts get much above your set temp. You could end up getting the 'karloz bump' for a quick bit. Boost knows nothing about temp.

No, will not boost the same

1 hour ago, mix11898 said:

2.As there is no Preheat Time Limit like Black & White in the Colour Version. How long does the preheat actually do there work here?

All preheat settings will end the closer yo get to the preheat temp/punch value.

1 hour ago, mix11898 said:

After vaping, the last puff temperature showed me that MTL one Actually reached the 420 F, but with DL one, it never reach 420 F, but only just around 200-300. is there anything wrong with my TFR? or it is just because the less airflow the easier the coil get to the temperature?

The TFR is for a material type, not related at all to atty or airflow or coil specs. That sounds more like the wrong cold ohm setting (value).

1 hour ago, mix11898 said:

4.Can we actually use Replay in Watt Modes?

I only ever use Replay in 'watts' material with SS316, SS430, Invar 36, Titanium. Others will promote combining it with TC but I do not. Makes your life much harder, and should really only be needed in a very few unique instances.

You can see all these differences (answers to your questions) with Device Monitor, with the Power, coil ohms, and temp boxes enabled (checkboxes)
 

[Wayneo]

18 minutes ago, BillW50 said:

Don't forget in TC mode, you can preheat with either by temperature or power (wattage).

Just for clarity, you must have a wattage value for preheat which is higher than your set watts, and your preheat is set by the Punch value, or temp value

[mix11898]

1 hour ago, Wayneo said:

Preheat Punch (1-11) is only for Temp Sensing materials. The higher the number, the closer it gets to the Temperature set before ending Preheat settings.
So the preheat won't let your watts get much above your set temp. You could end up getting the 'karloz bump' for a quick bit. Boost knows nothing about temp.

So does it means that if I set it it up like this it would get to 420 F instantly once I press the fire button ?

1 hour ago, Wayneo said:

The TFR is for a material type, not related at all to atty or airflow or coil specs. That sounds more like the wrong cold ohm setting (value).
 

Could you please explain me more about the cold ohm setting (value)?. Is it about the atty calibration or any escribe setting?

 

Anyway, thank you your response Wayneo. It's a good and clear answers as always.

Edited August 20, 2021 by mix11898

[CMK]

In order to understand the functionality and interrelationships of preheat in TC mode, it is helpful to create a screen in the theme in which the target temperature, preheat temperature and preheat punch are displayed at the same time. Then you will see that as the punch changes, the preheat temperature changes in fixed steps. These in turn depend on the target temperature. I can only recommend this approach, it really creates a lot of understanding.

[BillW50]

1 hour ago, mix11898 said:

So does it means that if I set it it up like this it would get to 420 F instantly once I press the fire button ?

Could you please explain me more about the cold ohm setting (value)?. Is it about the atty calibration or any escribe setting?

Anyway, thank you your response Wayneo. It's a good and clear answers as always.

Yes! This is called Temperature Dominant TC. The temperature goes straight to the set temperature and that is it.

Another mode under TC which I find more interesting and satisfying is Power Dominant TC. It vapes like Power Mode does, but has a temperature cap and dry hit protection. As the airflow as you draw varies per puff and thus the temperature varies thus the flavor notes of the juice peeks out individually at different temperatures. Meaning you get a more flavorful vape.

The cold ohm reading is the resistance of the coil at room temperature. It needs this value to calculate the correct temperature when the coil gets hot. It only knows what the cold ohm value is when you attach a cold atty on its first read.

Edited August 20, 2021 by BillW50

[Wayneo]

1 hour ago, mix11898 said:

So does it means that if I set it it up like this it would get to 420 F instantly once I press the fire button ?

Quick answer: No.

Longer answer: ALL mods start at zero, and work their way up. (Although depending on coil mass, the 250C can hit that 100 watts damn quick) while fighting to slow down, and overshoot the set temp by >25 degrees (the karloz bump). Plus you're using Replay there, WHICH I REFUSE TO COMMENT ON UNLESS I SEE A DEVICE MONITOR SCREEN SHOT WITH IT. Use Replay with watts, or TC especially as a new user. If you're brave enough to show a screenshot with those settings, I'm pretty sure I'll see that WATTAGE POWER SPIRAL OF DEATH.

1 hour ago, mix11898 said:

Could you please explain me more about the cold ohm setting (value)?. Is it about the atty calibration or any escribe setting?

NO. It's about the coil and atty being at room temperature. 

FOR THE SECOND TIME,

3 hours ago, Wayneo said:

You can see all these differences (answers to your questions) with Device Monitor, with the Power, coil ohms, and temp boxes enabled (checkboxes)

Here's a screenshot I'll take right now, of TC on an old 250 not color. Look at how IMHO TC should look for this juice. Yes it does hit the temp rather slowly but that's by my design, and the wattage drop toward the end is my inhalation getting weaker. 

While @gwyar is correct, to me Device Monitor is even easier   Edit: Just noticed my max temperature was 1.82 degrees above the set temperature. Let's see yours

 

[Wayneo]

Those terms Bill is talking about is the display on your VT Inbox. 3 little boxes on the left hand side, 1 bigger value on the display. So that a user can decide what (temps or watts) they want to adjust EASIER. In BOTH ways you can either creep up on the set temp or hit it fast, depending on the numbers you set.

TC (actually Temperature PROTECTION) was envisioned just as the naming indicates. Protection from going above a set value. Even though we all say TC. Look in the datasheet yourself, there is zero mention of control. It's all how you set it up.

Replay in watts takes most of the fusiness out of everything.

[Wayneo]

Here is an example of what Bill would call Power Dominant. The FDA or nasties, we know occur around 470°F. So if you look, I've set that as the set max temp. I also know I like this coil ~53 watts. And look at the temp it eventually reaches (funnily enough) in my Temperature Dominant mode. There's more than 1 way to kill a bird. 

[mix11898]

Wow, all of the stuffs you guys explain to me are very interesting (though it might take me sometimes to read, learn and try to understand lol)

Maybe, if I have the mod in my hand right now it might be easier, because the only problem now is that I don't have the mod in my hand right now( will try it again maybe on Tuesday maybe.

Anyway, thanks a lot Wayneo,BillW50,gwyar

 

[BillW50]

Here is a video of James explaining Power Dominant, Temperature Dominant, and Replay. I set the video to start at the 29 minute mark where he starts to explain it. And it only last a few minutes so you don't need to watch the rest of  it or the beginning. Unless you want to of course.

 

[mix11898]

1 hour ago, BillW50 said:

Here is a video of James explaining Power Dominant, Temperature Dominant, and Replay. I set the video to start at the 29 minute mark where he starts to explain it. And it only last a few minutes so you don't need to watch the rest of  it or the beginning. Unless you want to of course.

 

Thanks Bill 😊 I will check this out.

Anyway, when you talked about the TC Dominant & Power Dominant, it reminded of this article I read here.

https://www.ecigssa.co.za/guide-to-fine-tuning-temp-control-vaping.t18206/

By the way, can't wait to try 😭.

Edited August 20, 2021 by mix11898

[CMK]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Wayneo:

While @gwyar is correct, to me Device Monitor is even easier   Edit: Just noticed my max temperature was 1.82 degrees above the set temperature. Let's see yours

Even if the wattage is almost optimally adjusted to the target temperature, the maximum temperature will always be slightly above the target temperature, since the power supply is only reduced when the target temperature is reached and the coil continues to heat briefly due to its inertia.
The average temperature will ALWAYS be below the target temperature, as the heat-up phase is also taken into account in the evaluation.

In order to be able to optimally coordinate the power and preheat to the coil, in my current landscape themes in TC mode I always show the power actually used next to the target temperature, as well as the maximum and average temperature, directly on the main screen.

I show the temperature of the preheat here, but when this is selected the display changes to the punch assigned to the temperature and the setting is also made as a punch (1 to 11). In this way, the internal dependency (Preheat-Temp <=> Preheat Punch) can also be clearly seen, as well as the influence of the target temperature on the presetting that I described above.

Edited August 20, 2021 by gwyar

[BillW50]

29 minutes ago, mix11898 said:

Thanks Bill 😊 I will check this out.

Anyway, when you talked about the TC Dominant & Power Dominant, it reminded of this article I read here.

https://www.ecigssa.co.za/guide-to-fine-tuning-temp-control-vaping.t18206/

By the way, can't wait to try 😭.

Yes, that is it, #6.

[Wayneo]

@gwyar you know I use your theme on one of my mods. It does show good information, but Device Monitor shows more, both in text and in a graphical fashion. Yours is a thorough theme that follows Evolv's public comments rigorously.👍
The only thing I don't agree with is when preheat stops. Even at a punch of 11, preheat settings stop before reaching the set temp. If you can show a visual of crazy preheat until the set temp, I can show a visual of crazy preheat stopping before the set temp.  

@BillW50 For that video, first off that's NOT James (13:19), that be John.
I'm sure it wasn't the first time, but back in 2017, before this 2018 video, I was talking about different flavor profiles at different temps, even here. Which John talks about in the video 

https://forum.evolvapor.com/topic/68913-tc-temp-wattage-w-crown-iii/?do=findComment&comment=919692

And John mentions the word dominant only once, as the way most users set up TC for themselves at (32:40), the blast off way. Not power dominant, not temperature dominant. 
Now starting at about (43:50) the inventor himself (John) says how to setup a replay puff. Watch it yourself, but I'll quote him "The way to set up a replay puff is you set it up in WATTAGE CONTROL typically, you vape on it till your pretty happy with it and then you set replay........" 

@mix11898, in that article, the author says 3 modes. (#6)
1) Temperature-protected mode. (looks like my 2nd puff)
2) Temperature-controlled mode. (blast off)
3) Hybrid temp-regulated mode. (looks like my 1st puff, but my temp and power lines are much smoother)

I don't see dominant anywhere. 

[CMK]

vor 15 Minuten schrieb Wayneo:

The only thing I don't agree with is when preheat stops. Even at a punch of 11, preheat settings stop before reaching the set temp.

I think I expressed myself ambiguously; the target temperature is not necessarily exceeded in the preheat phase.
Even with a setting preheat punch = 11 (max), the temperature assigned by the chipset is below the final target temperature, for example target temperature 450 ° F + preheat punch 11 = preheat temperature 440 ° F. I assume that Evolv designed this precisely to counteract the re-heating of the coil. Ultimately, however, one of the developers would have to comment on this. In any case, I have not yet succeeded in setting the mod so that the maximum temperature of a puff matches the target temperature - UNLESS I go down accordingly with the output power.

[Wayneo]

14 minutes ago, gwyar said:

Even with a setting preheat punch = 11 (max), the temperature assigned by the chipset is below the final target temperature, for example target temperature 450 ° F + preheat punch 11 = preheat temperature 440 ° F.

That is a true statement  Like I mentioned above, the set temp should be thought of as the max temp, or temp limit. I'd have to look around if I ever saw a perfect match. Mine, at a 1.82°F over even surprised me. When i normally look it's more like 5°F over.

[BillW50]

19 hours ago, Wayneo said:

I don't see dominant anywhere. 

 

Whether using Power Dominant or Temperature Dominant, is the one that is dominant which you use to tweak your vape up and down to tailor your vape. To make this easier on the DNA60, 75, 200, and 250, you can select Power Dominant or Temperature Dominant through the Temperature Dominant toggle in each profile. All this does is to swap which one adjusts with the up and down buttons on the main screen.

As John and Daniel mentioned in the video, some vapers adjust TC to slam the coil straight to the set temperature. Then they adjust their vape by adjusting the temperature up and down. It seems to me like 95% or so TC vapers vape this way. It is also well known that the majority of vapers doesn't like vaping in TC because it doesn't vape as satisfying like Power mode does. I feel this is the reason why.

But you can get the same satisfying vape in TC as you can in Power mode. As in Power mode, you tweak your vape by adjusting the power up and down. In TC, you can do the same thing instead of slamming it straight to a set temperature. In EScribe, the DNA75C, 100C, and 250C lacks the Temperature Dominant toggle. Because it is just as easy to tweak either power or temperature up or down from the main screen.

Edited August 21, 2021 by BillW50