Resample resistance when switching profiles?

[TubThumper]

Hi all,
I bought my first DNA mod a few days ago, one utilising the 75C board. I think I have it all sorted for the most part, but there is one quirk that is causing me a bit of bother.

Whilst in these early stages, I have set up a number of different SS316L profiles all at the same time; the idea was that I could experiment and switch between them to find which one works best for me.

The issue is whenever I switch to another profile, it wants to remeasure the resistance.
Obviously I dont want this to occur as the atomizer will be warm. Selecting "No, use old settings" however, will cause it to use the cold ohms of whatever atomizer was in use the last time the profile was opened (which in my case, often isnt the same atomizer).

Im pretty sure I could figure my way around this to be able to experiment whilst connected to EScribe (manually setting/locking ohms) but would there be any suggestions to how I could have this work when not connected?

[TubThumper]

For what its worth, I have worked out a temporary solution for this: Whenever I attach a new (cold) atomizer, I open all TC profiles one at a time, manually measuring the resistance through the settings menu in each. This in essence 'saves' the correct base resistance on each profile and I am then free to switch between them (selecting "No, use old settings" each time).

I am still curious as to whether there is a way to avoid having to do this; say a setting in Escribe I am yet to discover, that prevents it remeasuring the resistance upon switching profiles...

Edited April 3, 2020 by TubThumper

[zark]

1 час назад, TubThumper сказал:

Мне все еще любопытно, есть ли способ избежать этого; скажи настройку в Escribe Я еще не обнаружил, что мешает переизмерить сопротивление при переключении профилей ...

Теоретически возможность есть, но я бы не советовал делать настройки Escribe настолько грубыми, это может привести к сжиганию хлопка при экспериментах с разными настройками. При получении достаточного опыта работы в Escribe Вы сами поймете как делать настройки менее чувствительными к изменению сопротивления катушки.

[TubThumper]

25 minutes ago, zark said:

Теоретически возможность есть, но я бы не советовал делать настройки Escribe настолько грубыми, это может привести к сжиганию хлопка при экспериментах с разными настройками. При получении достаточного опыта работы в Escribe Вы сами поймете как делать настройки менее чувствительными к изменению сопротивления катушки.

Thank you for the reply!
I should probably clarify that Im not experimenting with any pre-heat/punch settings (all set to minimum or zero).

Im a little unsure of the correct terminology but in each profile I have loaded a different CSV file for SS316L material (Jaquith's v3.25, v3.5 & v4, one from steam engine, one with TCR only and one with Evolv's standard SS316 profile).
Its currently difficult, or at least inconvenient for me to directly compare these to find which one works best, as I cant move between the profiles without the board wanting to take a new resistance reading.
I was hoping there may be a setting somewhere that prevents the board from requiring this?

[Wayneo]

Why not just change the material type within the 1 profile.

Also, why not just use Evolv's standard SS316 profile? Those jaquith profiles were for a specific batch of UD wire from years ago. The TCR  was in between SS316 and SS430

[Jetro]

Tub  Thumper,

I still experiment as you describe. To get around the resample problem, I would put all of the cold atty's (5) on one profile. I would measure the resistance by useing the read ohms button in my theme. I made a notepad file that I

recorded the different cold atty's resistances in. In my theme I have a cold resistance field on the main screen that I can set the ohms in.

If your theme has an ohms field you can make it editable by using Theme Designer and the settings in the screenshot below. If your theme does not have a read ohms button I can show you how to make one.

JT

Edited April 4, 2020 by Jetro
Caps

[TubThumper]

11 minutes ago, Wayneo said:

Why not just change the material type within the 1 profile.

Also, why not just use Evolv's standard SS316 profile? Those jaquith profiles were for a specific batch of UD wire from years ago. The TCR  was in between SS316 and SS430

Is it possible to change the material type within the profile whilst not connected to Escribe? Note that Im still currently using the stock theme so I may be missing out on some functionality present in others.

Before buying the mod, I did alot of research and regularly saw comments  suggesting that the standard SS316 profile wasnt very good (even less so when using it with SS316L) and that most people were finding best results with Jaquith's, DJLSB's or Steam Engine's material CSV's. Its for this reason that I wanted to go about comparing them and choosing the one that works best for me.

From my limited testing so far Id have to say I agree, but then the testing process has been a bit tedious due to the issue mentioned in the OP.

[TubThumper]

1 minute ago, Jetro said:

Tub  Thumper,

I still experiment as you describe. To get around the resample problem, I would put all of the cold atty's (5) on one profile. I would measure the resistance by useing the read ohms button in my theme. I made a notepad file that I

recorded the different cold atty's resistances in. In my theme I have a cold resistance field on the main screen that I can set the ohms in.

If your theme has an ohms field you can make it editable by using theme designer and the settings in the screenshot below. If your theme does not have a read ohms button I can show you how to make one.

JT

Thats a great idea! Now that you mention it, it seems so easy and logical haha. 

Im currently still using the stock theme which does appear to allow you to manually enter a base resistance (albeit only to two decimal places - not sure how much this may affect things).

If there is no such option to prevent the board from wanting to resample the resistance upon switching profiles, I may well do this.

Thanks for the suggestion!

[Jetro]

Tub Thumper,

There is no way around the resample thing.   Using EScribe  to do it is a royal pain. Hold on for minute I might have a default theme with the features that you can use until you have more experience with the mod and themes.

JT

[Jetro]

Tub Thumper,

If I remember correctly the board reads the ohms to five decimal places. It is very important to use the 1/10,000 setting when editing the ohms. At the default 1/100s the ohms could be 10 to 20% off from the actual resistance if the coil is below .15 ohm. Measuring and setting the ohms in this fine of scale should help in evaluating the different tcr/tfr settings.

This is the default Evolv theme with the read ohms button and ohms editing field. I replaced the upper ohms field with the battery voltage. I also made the Atomizer screen ohms field read only.

Download the theme and have fun!!

JT

About the tcr/tfr's I use the Steam Engine version. I feel that the default 316 profile vapes too cold. The temperature setting for the stock 316 profile  was 20 to 30 degres higher for me than the Steam Engine profile. Hope this helps, JT

 

250c default with ms ohms.ecigtheme

Edited April 4, 2020 by Jetro
added info, brain dead

[TubThumper]

19 minutes ago, Jetro said:

Tub Thumper,

If I remember correctly the board reads the ohms to five decimal places. It is very important to use the 1/10,000 setting when editing the ohms. At the default 1/100s the ohms could be 10 to 20% off from the actual resistance if the coil is below .15 ohm. Measuring and setting the ohms in this fine of scale should help in evaluating the different tcr/tfr settings.

This is the default Evolv theme with the read ohms button and ohms editing field. I replaced the upper ohms field with the battery voltage. I also made the Atomizer screen ohms field read only.

Download the theme and have fun!!

JT

About the tcr/tfr's I use the Steam Engine version. I feel that the default 316 profile vapes too cold. The temperature setting for the stock 316 profile  was 20 to 30 degres higher for me than the Steam Engine profile. Hope this helps, JT

 

250c default with ms ohms.ecigtheme

Many thanks Jetro!

Its a shame there is no option to avoid the resampling of the resistance, but once I find the right TFR for me it should no longer be an annoyance for me. I cant say I have tested the Steam Engine version too much as yet, but I will be sure to do so when time allows. Like yourself, I see many using and recommending it!

I will also be sure to ditch the stock theme and check out the one you have provided. I wasnt planning to delve too much into themes until I had the profiles configured to my liking, but it sounds like there could be some valuable information and functionality Im currently missing out on, that could be making things easier.

Thanks again!

[Jetro]

You are very welcome, Tub Thumper.

When I got my first 75c 2 or so years ago. I stayed on the stock theme until I got all of the new stuff the board did sorted out. Experimenting with different wires and atty's was fun. I did not want to complicate the learning curve by throwing themes into the equation as well. I'm sort on an old guy (66) who likes to start slow and learn everything I can about something new. To many variables at the same time for me is not a good thing☺

Anyway, good luck and stay safe............JT

[Jetro]

I forgot to mention,

When using the measure button. Do it once for the most accurate reading. Each time you read the ohms the mod sends a tiny amount of current to the atty to make the measurement. If the button is selected over and over the resistance reading will rise as the measuring current heats the coil.

JT

To add to this it can be dangerous to edit the resistance without a good reason. T/C Depends on the correct resistance to  be measured and set. Inputting the wrong values high or low will cause the temperature of the coil to be VERY different than what is set on the mods screen. Inputting a KNOWN resistance value is not a problem in the least. Butt changing the resistance to make it vape better is in my opinion is not a very smart thing to do.

Edited April 4, 2020 by Jetro

[TubThumper]

1 hour ago, Jetro said:

You are very welcome, Tub Thumper.

When I got my first 75c 2 or so years ago. I stayed on the stock theme until I got all of the new stuff the board did sorted out. Experimenting with different wires and atty's was fun. I did not want to complicate the learning curve by throwing themes into the equation as well. I'm sort on an old guy (66) who likes to start slow and learn everything I can about something new. To many variables at the same time for me is not a good thing☺

Anyway, good luck and stay safe............JT

 

50 minutes ago, Jetro said:

I forgot to mention,

When using the measure button. Do it once for the most accurate reading. Each time you read the ohms the mod sends a tiny amount of current to the atty to make the measurement. If the button is selected over and over the resistance reading will rise as the measuring current heats the coil.

JT

To add to this it can be dangerous to edit the resistance without a good reason. T/C Depends on the correct resistance to  be measured and set. Inputting the wrong values high or low will cause the temperature of the coil to be VERY different than what is set on the mods screen. Inputting a KNOWN resistance value is not a problem in the least. Butt changing the resistance to make it vape better is in my opinion is not a very smart thing to do.

Same here! My plan was to stick to the stock theme after all my research intimidated me somewhat and made me inclined to take things slow and be methodical in configuring everything. Now that I'm actually hands-on with it, its actually not nearly as complicated as I imagined it to be. (In all reality though, Im probably only scratching the surface of what it has to offer haha). This being the case, I'll look into that theme of yours asap!

Your point regarding the manual resistance measure is also a great one and something I did notice. In my second comment on this post, I mentioned opening each profile and manually measuring the resistance on each. I found that by the time I got to the third profile or so, it would read 0.01 higher. On this third profile and on those thereafter, I resorted to entering the resistance as measured on the first two. But then on the stock theme this can only be done to the two decimal places which as you mentioned, will be affecting accuracy.

Sounds like this is all the more need for a better theme

[Jetro]

On 4/4/2020 at 2:52 AM, TubThumper said:

Your point regarding the manual resistance measure is also a great one and something I did notice. In my second comment on this post, I mentioned opening each profile and manually measuring the resistance on each. I found that by the time I got to the third profile or so, it would read 0.01 higher. On this third profile and on those thereafter, I resorted to entering the resistance as measured on the first two. But then on the stock theme this can only be done to the two decimal places which as you mentioned, will be affecting accuracy.

Sounds like this is all the more need for a better theme

When you start using the little theme I made check out making several resistance checks one after the other. I think it will impress you how much the ohms change after each measurement. The increase also depends on which type for wire used. When vaping on stainless the resistance rise is much lower cold to hot, compared to titanium that has an ohm rise of around 85 to 95%

All ohm settings are critical for any wire type. But because stainless resistance rises so little when heated, the accuracy of the measurement and settings are magnitudes more important.

The theme I included isn't very pretty but as a simple tool to use in your experimenting it will be fine. Down the road a better theme is a must. I've been developing  a more technically inclined theme for a while. It and its documentation are just about done. After I post it on Theme Park I hope you will check it out.

The note I added on not making ohms changes to make the vape better was aimed at inexperienced people who might not know that it is  a dangerous practice to do so. I wish I could have edited the post with the theme to make that statement. But I waited to long to edit the post.

JT

[TubThumper]

On 4/4/2020 at 10:59 AM, Jetro said:

When you start using the little theme I made check out making several resistance checks one after the other. I think it will impress you how much the ohms change after each measurement. The increase also depends on which type for wire used. When vaping on stainless the resistance rise is much lower cold to hot, compared to titanium that has an ohm rise of around 85 to 95%

All ohm settings are critical for any wire type. But because stainless resistance rises so little when heated, the accuracy of the measurement and settings are magnitudes more important.

The theme I included isn't very pretty but as a simple tool to use in your experimenting it will be fine. Down the road a better theme is a must. I've been developing  a more technically inclined theme for a while. It and its documentation are just about done. After I post it on Theme Park I hope you will check it out.

The note I added on not making ohms changes to make the vape better was aimed at inexperienced people who might not know that it is  a dangerous practice to do so. I wish I could have edited the post with the theme to make that statement. But I waited to long to edit the post.

JT

I now have your theme uploaded and using both your earlier suggestion, as well as now having the ability to first measure and then manually input the base resistance to four decimal places on each profile, has been making my testing far easier and more accurate! I prefer clean and basic theme designs and found the stock theme to be easy to read and navigate, so your feeling that it isn't "pretty", to me is actually a positive haha.

I also look forward to checking out your new theme once posted. I'll be sure to keep an eye out.

Thanks again!
 

Thanks again!

[Jetro]

I'm really glad that is helping. If you think I could help with other mod or theme related questions. Ask away. If I know the answer I'll tell you what I know. If I can't answer you will hear, sorry I don't know.

I am the the same. I really dislike having loud colors and having to read fields through pictures. Having to use a microscope to see the 250 things on a screen is well........

Due to some things that are out of my control. I'm stuck with not being able to do much other than work at the p/c.

I'll take the theme I posted and make all the changes that I wanted to make the other night. It would take no time to add some features to make it more usable.

Do you have a preference for the wattage and temperature adjustment steps? The choices are for wattage .1, .2, .5, 1, 2, 5 or 10 watt increments. For temperature 1°, 2°, 5° or 10°. It takes no more time to leave increments at the default .1 watt and 1° then it does to change the value. I prefer 2° temperature steps, for me 1° does not make enough difference in flavor and 5° is to coarse. Let me know. It will take a couple of days of fooling around with it on and off. I'll post it here when its done.

Regards....JT

 

[TubThumper]

30 minutes ago, Jetro said:

I'm really glad that is helping. If you think I could help with other mod or theme related questions. Ask away. If I know the answer I'll tell you what I know. If I can't answer you will hear, sorry I don't know.

I am the the same. I really dislike having loud colors and having to read fields through pictures. Having to use a microscope to see the 250 things on a screen is well........

Due to some things that are out of my control. I'm stuck with not being able to do much other than work at the p/c.

I'll take the theme I posted and make all the changes that I wanted to make the other night. It would take no time to add some features to make it more usable.

Do you have a preference for the wattage and temperature adjustment steps? The choices are for wattage .1, .2, .5, 1, 2, 5 or 10 watt increments. For temperature 1°, 2°, 5° or 10°. It takes no more time to leave increments at the default .1 watt and 1° then it does to change the value. I prefer 2° temperature steps, for me 1° does not make enough difference in flavor and 5° is to coarse. Let me know. It will take a couple of days of fooling around with it on and off. I'll post it here when its done.

Regards....JT

 

That would be great. I really appreciate it!
I actually had the chance to briefly play around with the Theme Designer today and just in satisfying my curiosity, figured out how to make adjustments to the conditions of those existing controls, including modifying the number of decimal places in resistance readings.
Personally I would probably prefer increments of 5w and 10°, but then thats just me haha. It sounds like a theme with my preferred increments wouldn;t be suitable for yourself.  When developing a theme that you plan to publish publicly, it would indeed be difficult to know how to set it up to cater to the majority of people!

I look forward to checking out your theme once you're ready to release it, as well as delving a bit deeper into the Theme Designer myself for a bit of fun!

[zark]

5 часов назад, TubThumper сказал:

а также углубиться в самого дизайнера тем и немного повеселиться!

Это наиболее правильный путь к решению проблем и получению опыта в настройках Escribe

[Wayneo]

TLDR - Much cleaner, quicker and more accurate to follow my initial suggestion IMHO.

A few comments and clarifications
Your SS316L should ONLY be increasing in Ω's ~20% for normal vaping temperatures or ~25% with the jacked up profiles. Much respect to jaquith in the early years.

I just checked @Jetro's theme and you can indeed change the material type within a profile.
You can make all the notes you want and manually change them to your hearts content if you wish, but the board actually has much greater precision than either of you imagine. Here's an exact copy and paste from 75C this morning. And those minor mΩ changes are accurate as the cold Ω of a coil is always based on resistance and room temperature.

0.330322266Ω (cold ohm) @ 72.40625°F (room temp) <- And yes, my home thermostat is set at 72°F 

Bowing out again.   

[Jetro]

Wayneo,
Thanks for your input! I have read your posts on here and ECF going back years and value you're opinions as comming from knowledgable source.

The theme I posted is the default Evolv theme I just added the read ohms button and resistance field. I am aware that you can change the wire type in that theme. Because of Tub Thumper's short experience with the mod I do not think he realized he could do so on the mod. If he did know that he could change the wire type it was never stated and imho did not pertain to the question asked. One of my points was to try answer his question on whether he could turn ohms sampling off on the mod. Another was to create a tool that would make his experimenting easier. The third I was hoping he would delve into Theme Designer and see hw much fun can be had with that software.I think I accomplished that mission.

I just checked the resistance rise on three mods with temco SS316L , I use the steam engine tfr. You are correct. The average rise was 20.5%. I normally vape temco titanium 1 using the steam engine tfr. A long time ago I did the math using a calculator instead of my at times feeble brain and the rise percentage is what I stated,  80 to 90% averaging ~ 83%. Also I was trying to make a point showing that SS rises a very small amount compared to other wire types. 

I also reallize that you think this testing is a frivolous waste of time. I can respect that. Back when I first tried SS316l I basically did the exact kind of testing as Tub Thumper is doing. Using the mod as the test tool and measuring the resistance on the mod using the finest value (1/10000 ohm) available.I know that the results of my testing were skewed and not 100% accurate because the mod reads the ohms at a finer level than 1/10000 of an ohm. I thought the mod would refine the entered value. Maybe I am wrong on refining the resistance? I also tried to keep the room temp as close to 70° as possible during my testing for consistency. I did not know that the mod read the resistance to nine decimal places. I thought it was 5 or 6. But at the end of the day, I had fun, I made the correct decision to use a tfr from a known source. Not some half baked tcr fom djlsb or any other source. I also respect the work that jaquith put in early on too. He was an asset to the community! It also did not harm me or my mods to do so. I hope you can respect that.

One question,
Are you getting the resistance value from calculating the known tfr vs room temperature or does your mod display such a value?

Anyway stay safe and have a great day....JT

[Jetro]

9 hours ago, TubThumper said:

That would be great. I really appreciate it!
I actually had the chance to briefly play around with the Theme Designer today and just in satisfying my curiosity, figured out how to make adjustments to the conditions of those existing controls, including modifying the number of decimal places in resistance readings.
Personally I would probably prefer increments of 5w and 10°, but then thats just me haha. It sounds like a theme with my preferred increments wouldn;t be suitable for yourself.  When developing a theme that you plan to publish publicly, it would indeed be difficult to know how to set it up to cater to the majority of people!

I look forward to checking out your theme once you're ready to release it, as well as delving a bit deeper into the Theme Designer myself for a bit of fun!

Man that is to cool. I was hoping that you would delve into Theme Designer, I've had a ton of fun making themes of my own and for other people like the one I an doing for you.

I will set the theme at 5w and 10°. Personally I think those values are to coarse. But being that you have figured out how to change the increments in Theme Designer I know you can tailor the values to suit your vaping style. Nicely done sir!!

Check back in a couple of days. I'll post the theme here.

Regards....JT

[Jetro]

4 hours ago, zark said:

Это наиболее правильный путь к решению проблем и получению опыта в настройках Escribe

zark,
Я надеялся, что он будет судить Проектировщика Темы к. Я думаю, что он имел бы развлечение с этим.

JT

[Wayneo]

@Jetro, no apologies or explanations necessary at all. I respect your and comrade @zark's input and ideas. I hope you are well. 

I always support testing! 

Stay well, stay safe, keep inspiring others. 
 

[TubThumper]

On 4/5/2020 at 10:07 AM, Wayneo said:

TLDR - Much cleaner, quicker and more accurate to follow my initial suggestion IMHO.

A few comments and clarifications
Your SS316L should ONLY be increasing in Ω's ~20% for normal vaping temperatures or ~25% with the jacked up profiles. Much respect to jaquith in the early years.

I just checked @Jetro's theme and you can indeed change the material type within a profile.
You can make all the notes you want and manually change them to your hearts content if you wish, but the board actually has much greater precision than either of you imagine. Here's an exact copy and paste from 75C this morning. And those minor mΩ changes are accurate as the cold Ω of a coil is always based on resistance and room temperature.

0.330322266Ω (cold ohm) @ 72.40625°F (room temp) <- And yes, my home thermostat is set at 72°F 

Bowing out again.   

 

On 4/5/2020 at 1:03 PM, Jetro said:

Wayneo,
Thanks for your input! I have read your posts on here and ECF going back years and value you're opinions as comming from knowledgable source.

The theme I posted is the default Evolv theme I just added the read ohms button and resistance field. I am aware that you can change the wire type in that theme. Because of Tub Thumper's short experience with the mod I do not think he realized he could do so on the mod. If he did know that he could change the wire type it was never stated and imho did not pertain to the question asked. One of my points was to try answer his question on whether he could turn ohms sampling off on the mod. Another was to create a tool that would make his experimenting easier. The third I was hoping he would delve into Theme Designer and see hw much fun can be had with that software.I think I accomplished that mission.

I just checked the resistance rise on three mods with temco SS316L , I use the steam engine tfr. You are correct. The average rise was 20.5%. I normally vape temco titanium 1 using the steam engine tfr. A long time ago I did the math using a calculator instead of my at times feeble brain and the rise percentage is what I stated,  80 to 90% averaging ~ 83%. Also I was trying to make a point showing that SS rises a very small amount compared to other wire types.

I also reallize that you think this testing is a frivolous waste of time. I can respect that. Back when I first tried SS316l I basically did the exact kind of testing as Tub Thumper is doing. Using the mod as the test tool and measuring the resistance on the mod using the finest value (1/10000 ohm) available.I know that the results of my testing were skewed and not 100% accurate because the mod reads the ohms at a finer level than 1/10000 of an ohm. I thought the mod would refine the entered value. Maybe I am wrong on refining the resistance? I also tried to keep the room temp as close to 70° as possible during my testing for consistency. I did not know that the mod read the resistance to nine decimal places. I thought it was 5 or 6. But at the end of the day, I had fun, I made the correct decision to use a tfr from a known source. Not some half baked tcr fom djlsb or any other source. I also respect the work that jaquith put in early on too. He was an asset to the community! It also did not harm me or my mods to do so. I hope you can respect that.

One question,
Are you getting the resistance value from calculating the known tfr vs room temperature or does your mod display such a value?

Anyway stay safe and have a great day....JT

Thanks for pointing that out!
Prior to uploading Jetro's theme, I was indeed unaware that you could switch materials within a profile on the the device itself. I dont recall ever seeing this option with the default Evolv theme, but then again I also didnt notice that Jetro's theme could do this until it was mentioned just now (my theme and material names are the same so perhaps this was confusing me within the menu). With this being the case, the issue I outlined in the OP is a moot point. Fantastic!

For what its worth, I believe I understand the value in allowing the mod to measure and refine the resistance automatically and I can see how tiny inaccuracies in the measured (/entered) base resistance can lead to a wildly inaccurate end result. Any suggestion of manually entering a resistance would only have been a last-resort action for the purpose of this initial testing, in an attempt to find the TFR curve that gave me the best vape experience. 

With that in mind, @Wayneo what TFR curve would you recommend using with SS316L?
I am currently having great results with Jaquith's v3.25 TFR in terms of vape quality (understanding that whether it is accurate or not is a whole other kettle of fish), however I get the impression that you believe there to be alternatives that offer a better, or more accurate experience?
Any insight or direction would be greatly appreciated!