Photo Pete Posted July 2, 2018 Report Share Posted July 2, 2018 Hi New DNA user here (but long time Arctic Fox user), with a newly purchased Lost Vape Paranormal 250C. A couple of issues that I'm having and I'm wondering if they are 'normal for the Paranormal' or whether I need to submit a ticket: 1 - Case Analyser Trickle Charge When trying to run the case analyser it is showing a low level charging current from the usb connection (fluctuating between about 0 and 0.03). The case analyser completes OK and the room temperature when complete is showing within 1 degree C of my room thermometer reading. The coil resistance readings also appear to be accurate (within 0.001 ohms of the steam engine coil wrapping tool prediction and again within 0.001 of the readings from my other mods which are running arctic fox. Should I be concerned about the usb trickle charge, even though it seems to give accurate cold resistance readings and room temperature readings will it affect the mod performance in other ways? Is this normal? 2 - Cold / Weak Vape Using Temp Control with Stainless Steel Wire Using Stealthvape SS316L 26g wire with the steam engine DNA curve for SS316L wire I get a very weak and cold vape with the DNA 250c. 420F produces virtually no vapour. 470F is a cool vape (what I would normally expect at 420F) and to get a reasonably warm vape I am having to go up to 520 - 530F. Using the same coil / tank on my other mods which are running Arctic Fox I am getting a far warmer and nicer vape between 420F and 470F whilst using the same Steam Engine SS316L curve. To get a comparable vape with the DNA 250c I need to use the steam engine curve for SS304 instead of SS316L! The cold resistance of my builds reads consistently between the DNA250c and my other mods. Internal resistance of the Lost Vape Paranormal is set at 0.004 ohms (so even if I were to set it to 0,000 ohms it wouldn't change the registered coil resistance sufficiently to resolve the problem). The cold and weak vape occurs on all my coil builds with SS316L (both single and dual coils). . If it helps, I'm currently using a dual coil build on a Geekvape Zeus dual coil tank. 6.5 wraps of 26g Stealthvape SS316L around a 3mm rod and about 8mm total leg length per coil. The build reads at 0.251 ohms on the Paranormal DNA 250c and 0,250 ohms on my Arctic Fox mods. The Steam Engine prediction is 0.250 ohms. I'm vaping in TC mode with 75 watt power set and no preheat. The device monitor is showing the temperature quickly increasing to the set temperature with minimal overshoot and then stopping within +/- 4 F of the set temperature for the duration of the vape. So the monitored TC performance is consistent and smooth for stainless steel wire, but the coils are clearly not reaching the indicated temperature when using the Steam Engine SS316L figures. Is this 'cold' vape normal for the Lost Vape Paranormal / DNA250c or is there something wrong? Any help would be appreciated! Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retird Posted July 3, 2018 Report Share Posted July 3, 2018 From what you are saying about the results shown in Device Monitor you are reaching temp and it is regulating.... I don't build coils such as yours but at 420F on many DNA's my vape is not a warm vape.... I usually vape SS316L at about 430 to 450F and not a warm vape.... I don't like warm vapes.... I'm not familiar with Artic Fox but am familiar with DNA's.... Could it be that the Artic Fox doesn't consistently measure Temperature and you are vaping at higher temp than you think thus getting a warmer vape? How do you check the temp with the Artic Fox.... DNA's have Device Monitor to see what it's doing.... what graphing software does the Artic Fox use? My comments may not be of any value to you but are just my thoughts.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photo Pete Posted July 3, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2018 Hi Arctic fox has virtually the same graphing ability as escribe, with live monitoring of all key parameters. The problem with both arctic fox and escribe is that they aren’t graphing the temperature, only resistance translated to temperature, so it is difficult to know which one is teporting the temperature correctly. All I know is that in the normal 420f to 470f range the DNA250 feels really weak / cold with lack of flavour. If I switch to wattage mode with my dual coil zeus build I get a similar vapour production and warmth of vape (to the 450f DNA 250c setting) if I vape at 22w. Using the steam engine heat flux figures this equates to 100mW/sqmm, which is classed as a very cold vape. By comparison, when vaping my arctic fox mods at 450f it feels similar to vaping at about 36w, which steam engine classes as a slightly warm vape with a heat flux of 165mW/sqmm. This suggests that it is the DNA 250c which is reporting the temperature incorrectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayneo Posted July 3, 2018 Report Share Posted July 3, 2018 @Photo Pete My 2 Paranormals exhibited the exact same behaviour and results as your Item 1. I'm OK with that. For Item 2, I usually vape around the same temp as you ~390-450, and it's consistent across all my other DNAs. I do not lock my resistance. All I can think/suggest is have you tried another TC material (not SS) at 420F? @retirdArcticFox is an almost identical copy of Escribe created for Joyetech mods. Right down to Battery curves, Profiles, and Device Monitor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayneo Posted July 3, 2018 Report Share Posted July 3, 2018 (edited) @Photo Pete Are you saying the DNA appears to be about 30F too low? 10 minutes ago, Photo Pete said: only resistance translated to temperature, so it is difficult to know which one is teporting the temperature correctly. All I know is that in the normal 420f to 470f range the DNA250 feels really weak / cold with lack of flavour. Every mod does it this way Edited July 3, 2018 by Wayneo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photo Pete Posted July 3, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2018 1 minute ago, Wayneo said: @Photo Pete My 2 Paranormals exhibited the exact same behaviour and results as your Item 1. I'm OK with that. For Item 2, I usually vape around the same temp as you ~390-450, and it's consistent across all my other DNAs. I do not lock my resistance. All I can think/suggest is have you tried another TC material (not SS) at 420F? Thanks for that confirmation about Item 1. At least it doesn’t seem like I have a faulty copy. No, I’ve not tried other TC materials on this. I far prefer SS and the reason I bought the dna was for the promise of increased TC accuracy which would better handle the lower TCR of stainless steel (it does indeed show less variation in temperature, but the overall temperature just feels wrong!) I guess what I’m saying is that if I can’t get it to work satisfactorily with SS then there is no point me using it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photo Pete Posted July 3, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2018 1 minute ago, Wayneo said: @Photo Pete Are you saying the DNA appears to be about 30F too low? Probably more like 50F what I’m used to vaping at 450F needs about 500-510F on the dna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayneo Posted July 3, 2018 Report Share Posted July 3, 2018 (edited) So the quick and dirty fix, you can go to the material profile and edit it so the value displayed for the 'rise value' at 500F says 450F below it. The curve must always be increasing. OR, you can do a 'cotton singe/burn' test and do the math backwards for a TCR. 49 minutes ago, Photo Pete said: No, I’ve not tried other TC materials on this. I far prefer SS You have 2 mods that vape differently at the same temp, using the same curve. By 'trying' a different material at the same temp in both mods gives you another data point as to which mod is more accurate. SS, by nature of it being an alloy can be the trickiest to set if you want the displayed temperature value to be a close match to the actual temperature. Edited July 3, 2018 by Wayneo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photo Pete Posted July 3, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2018 3 minutes ago, Wayneo said: So the quick and dirty fix, you can go to the material profile and edit it so the value displayed for the 'rise value' at 500F says 420F below it. The curve must always be increasing. OR, you can do a 'cotton singe/burn' test and do the math backwards for a TCR. You have 2 mods that vape differently at the same temp, using the same curve. By 'trying' a different material at the same temp in both mods gives you another data point as to which mod is more accurate. SS, by nature of it being an alloy can be the trickiest to set if you want the displayed temperature value to be a close match to the actual temperature. I’ve already done the quick and dirty fix. I scaled each point on the material curve to give myself a bespoke curve that vapes more like I’m used to. Works well, and gives a curve virtually identical to SS304. It’s a bit of a kludge though and it doesn’t give me any confidence that I’m not vaping at temperatures which are potentially harmful. I like your idea of ‘calibrating’ using a singe/burn test. It sounds more scientific and should give a better confirmation of what the actual temperature is.... what are the trigger temperatures? 420F for singe? I guess it partly depends on the wicking material. I’m using Cotton Bacon by Wick ‘n’ Vape. Apologies in advance if I don’t respond again for a while... it’s 3am here and time for sleep! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayneo Posted July 3, 2018 Report Share Posted July 3, 2018 2 minutes ago, Photo Pete said: I’ve already done the quick and dirty fix. I scaled each point on the material curve to give myself a bespoke curve that vapes more like I’m used to. Works well, and gives a curve virtually identical to SS304. It's an alloy, where the composition is defined as 'element name' < x%, and can vary the actual TCR/TFR. I've seen some, more off than SS304. 7 minutes ago, Photo Pete said: .... what are the trigger temperatures? 420F for singe? I guess it partly depends on the wicking material. I’m using Cotton Bacon by Wick ‘n’ Vape. I've seen some set it at 420F to singe. I usually just use a Ni200, or Ti01 coil (temp), and see where my wicking material du jour singes, then use it for the new material (SS in this case). If you do a device monitor Printscreen when you have an innacurate singe temp (SS), and what you want that actually to be, I'll give you a TCR to use, or you can do like you've done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retird Posted July 3, 2018 Report Share Posted July 3, 2018 1 hour ago, Wayneo said: @Photo Pete My 2 Paranormals exhibited the exact same behaviour and results as your Item 1. I'm OK with that. For Item 2, I usually vape around the same temp as you ~390-450, and it's consistent across all my other DNAs. I do not lock my resistance. All I can think/suggest is have you tried another TC material (not SS) at 420F? @retirdArcticFox is an almost identical copy of Escribe created for Joyetech mods. Right down to Battery curves, Profiles, and Device Monitor. THX for the info.... got a link so I can download the Artic Fox software ? Would like to take a look.... EDIT: found a link....... 😊 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photo Pete Posted July 4, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2018 OK, I've been trying some other stainless steel round wire and 26g stainless steel core / 32g kanthal wrap Clapton wire from other vendors (Crazy Wire & UD). They all vape weak and flavourless in TC mode on the Paranormal DNA 250c using the Steam Engine profile for each wire type. All are fine on my mods running Arctic Fox. There is definitely something wrong with the way the Paranormal / DNA 250c handles temperature control with SS wire. The alignment between the measured resistance during the vape and the temperature assigned to it is simply wrong. £130 for a so called high end mod which can't handle SS temperature control as well as a £30 Wismec! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retird Posted July 4, 2018 Report Share Posted July 4, 2018 Maybe you got a defective device??? All my DNA's that do tenp protect are fine with SS316L... have you tried a different profile not using Steam Engine's profile? Here is the CSV I use... SS 316L.csv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayneo Posted July 4, 2018 Report Share Posted July 4, 2018 (edited) @Photo Pete Have you asked the AF boys their thoughts? I stand by my prior advice/suggestions. and I'm wondering if they are 'normal for the Paranormal' or whether I need to submit a ticket: You can always do that ^^^^ Edited July 4, 2018 by Wayneo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photo Pete Posted July 4, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2018 19 minutes ago, Wayneo said: @Photo Pete Have you asked the AF boys their thoughts? I stand by my prior advice/suggestions. No, their software is working fine, even on far less sophisticated hardware. It is the Lost Vape Paranormal and DNA 250c which is failing to work satisfactorily. I guess I will try submitting a ticket or returning it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retird Posted July 4, 2018 Report Share Posted July 4, 2018 Did you try the CSV I posted? Results??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photo Pete Posted July 4, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2018 2 hours ago, retird said: Maybe you got a defective device??? All my DNA's that do tenp protect are fine with SS316L... have you tried a different profile not using Steam Engine's profile? Here is the CSV I use... SS 316L.csv Thanks for this. Much appreciated for you spending time to try and assist. It is looking like it might be a defective device (hopefully not an intrinsic problem with the DNA250c). I've tried your CSV, thankyou. It does provide a steeper 'curve' than the steam engine version, but only improves things by around 30F. Using a SS304 curve from Steam Engine is slightly more aggressive still and gets me much closer to a satisfactory vape in the 420F to 470F range. The problem I have is that I don't see why I should need to be modifying TCR curves or using curves for other materials when other mods seem to handle the default curves just fine. I'll try submitting a ticket, talking to Lost Vape and then returning the mod if I can't sort it out satisfactorily. There are other, much cheaper, mods which appear to handle TC better than this. Admittedly the other mods have slightly more variation around the set temperature, but at least the set temperature produces some vape and some flavour as expected! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retird Posted July 4, 2018 Report Share Posted July 4, 2018 My only thought is that the circuit boards and the firmware in your other devices do Temp Protect differently than the DNA's do it.... Evolv invented Temp Protect and so I would be comparing all other boards against the DNA and not the other way around....... just my thoughts..... do the other devices have Replay yet??? Replay gives a consistent vape more so than Temp Protect I think...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadMan Posted July 4, 2018 Report Share Posted July 4, 2018 How does the SS316L respond in Replay mode? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retird Posted July 4, 2018 Report Share Posted July 4, 2018 17 minutes ago, DeadMan said: How does the SS316L respond in Replay mode? I only use Wismec Notch Coils (SS316L) and I do not make my own coils.... they are very consistent and work very will in Replay.... I used Temp Protect (TC) forever till Replay came out..... immediately switched to Replay..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photo Pete Posted July 4, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2018 9 minutes ago, retird said: My only thought is that the circuit boards and the firmware in your other devices do Temp Protect differently than the DNA's do it.... Evolv invented Temp Protect and so I would be comparing all other boards against the DNA and not the other way around....... just my thoughts..... do the other devices have Replay yet??? Replay gives a consistent vape more so than Temp Protect I think...... I understand where you are coming from. That's why I bought the DNA. I thought it would be a big improvement. I just simply can't ignore the fact that when vaping with the supplied SS316 profile or the SS316L Steam Engine profile that I need to be setting a temperature of 510F or above to get a decent vape, when the generally accepted range is from sub 400F to 470F. There is something wrong. I've tried Replay. It gives a good vape, but gives no feedback on the temperatures it is reaching (unless I use a TC profile rather than wattage mode and set it to work with Replay, at which point the same problems with temperature occur as when using the regular TC mode). I had hoped that the benchmark DNA chip would have given me more accurate reporting and control of temperature so as to help me vape at levels which carry less risk of toxic substances being produced (e.g not going above 470F for stainless steel). Without providing temperature information the Replay mode offers little to me above what I can achieve using regular wattage mode with Kanthal and a power curve applied (I can't remember the last time I had a dry hit). OK, so that's a bit harsh and Replay is a great development for wattage vaping... but it was temperature control I was looking for out of the DNA mod. Of course, it is possible that my DNA is reporting the temperature correctly and a weak vape with very little flavour and not much vapour is what can be expected below 470F, but it is unlikely I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retird Posted July 4, 2018 Report Share Posted July 4, 2018 Hope you get it resolved..... you can start a ticket with Evolv and they will guide you...... here is the link https://helpdesk.evolvapor.com/index.php?a=add&category=1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photo Pete Posted July 4, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2018 Thanks retird. I've submitted a ticket now and have linked to this thread as there is a lot of useful information about the problem in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photo Pete Posted July 5, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2018 OK. I've spent a bit more time on the arctic fox and escribe device monitors. The DNA 250 is recording the temp within +/- 5F of the set temperature and the live resistance that is showing is in line with the temperature predicted by the steam engine curve which I'm using for SS316L. My wismec is recording the temp within +/- 25F of the set temperature (to try and reduce that variation was the reason I bought the DNA250c in the first place). Even though the variations are equally above and below the set temperature, perhaps it is the higher peaks which are giving the feel of a warmer vape. Oddly enough it probably also gives the vape more flavour by bringing out different nuances in taste which come at slightly different temperatures, making the vape feel 'fuller'. Maybe the DNA temperature is correct and the 420F to 470F range just doesn't give a good warm and flavourful vape on a dual coil direct lung tank. Interestingly I also had a look at replay mode. I set the watts to give a good vape, set replay mode and then used the device monitor to view the live ohms (temperature isn't displayed). Translating the live ohms onto the steam engine curve it gave me a vape temperature of 530F! This was at 34w for a dual SS314L coil with total cold resistance of 0.252 ohms... so at the lower end of the normally recommended wattage range for that build. I set TC mode for 530F, and sure enough got a very similar vape to replay mode. Probably why replay mode is being so heavily favoured by people trying it compared to TC mode... it is easy to bring out more flavour by vaping at much higher temperatures without realising it. Difficult decision now. Vape weak and possibly 'safer' or bump up the temperatures in TC mode or (without knowing what temperature I'm setting) in replay mode to achieve a better vape? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadMan Posted July 5, 2018 Report Share Posted July 5, 2018 In your Replay profile try setting the warmth to 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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