Peak and average temp vs the set temp in device monitor?

[denniz]

I recently got my HCigar VT75D and was curious about something. When I look at the device monitor I see a peak temperature of  241C (466F) and an average temperature of 215C (419F). The temperature on the mod is set at 230C (446F). When looking at the real-time temperature graph I never see it hitting that peak temperature, it's mostly somewhere between 227C (441F) and 233C (451F). So how and where does that peak temperature come from and how long does it last? I can reproduce this effect consistently where the temperature off-course varies a bit every time. See the screenshot below.

For my example I'm using a simple 3,5mm diameter SS304 coil (0.33mm thick wire), measuring 0.737 ohm in a Merlin mini RTA wicked with Cotton Bacon v2.0, set at a temperature of 230C (446F) with the wattage at 21W, pre-heat is off. The juice is a 70 VG / 30 PG ratio. The coil resistance is not locked. The SS304 profile comes from the Steam-Engine. The mod internal resistance is set at 0.003 ohm measured with a copper plug I bought specifically for this. I haven't run the case thermal analyzer yet. The about box in Escribe says version 2.0 SP5.2. The about box on my mod says firmware 1.1 SP25.

Edited December 24, 2017 by denniz

[Wayneo]

22 minutes ago, denniz said:

So how and where does that peak temperature come from and how long does it last?

Usually as it ramps up, and then drops to your set temp. Usually due to a high punch ... say 11, and on a subsequent vape, will get lower. Also known as the Karloz bump.

That 215.5C for temp is the average of your vape which would include the ramp UP to your set temp.

[denniz]

4 minutes ago, Wayneo said:

Usually as it ramps up, and then drops to your set temp. Usually due to a high punch ... say 11, and on a subsequent vape, will get lower. Also known as the Karloz bump.

That 215.5C for temp is the average of your vape which would include the ramp UP to your set temp.

The average temp I figured out, which indeed includes the ramp up time, but I have pre-heat disabled and the wattage setting at 21W isn't that high for this type of coil. Also why doesn't the real-time temp graph show it hitting that peak temp? See the middle red line.

Edited December 24, 2017 by denniz

[Wayneo]

12 minutes ago, denniz said:

... why doesn't the real-time temp graph show it hitting that peak temp

Dunno, but it's very quick, and that's a pretty tiny screen. You should trust the hard numbers. Here's an alternate printscreen with the bump shown. Mod set for 440F, hit 444F.

 

Edited December 24, 2017 by Wayneo

[retird]

.The DNA regulates the temperature to a set temperature. (230C in your example). As the temp is met (at 230C) it may overshoot that temp a bit at which time it is regulated down to 230C. Depending on the coil build and other things it may regulate down (under 230F) at which time it will again try to reach 230C.  So it is constantly monitoring and regulating.  Case Analyzer helps by giving the most accurate calibration for temp readings.  Your device is operating as it should..

To get a better look at what your device is doing you might check the following boxes in Device Monitor (see screenshot below I'm using a DNA200 device)). I use these to fine-tune the settings (such as pre-heat, punch, wattage and temp and to do things like monitoring the resistance change of the coil while heating and battery sag, and etc..)

 

 

 

[denniz]

2 hours ago, Wayneo said:

Dunno, but it's very quick, and that's a pretty tiny screen. You should trust the hard numbers. Here's an alternate printscreen with the bump shown. Mod set for 440F, hit 444F.

 

But the thing is the screenshot I posted is taken from Escribe, not from the mod itself.

I also noticed another thing just now, I switched juice from 70VG/30PG to a 50VG/50PG juice and now the peak temp is less pronounced, it maxed out at 3C (37F)  to 5C (41F)  above the set temp at the same settings. That's far more to my liking then overshooting it by more then 10C (50F) like it did with the higher VG juice. Could it be a wicking problem? I find wicking for higher VG juices somewhat annoying, I also find that I have to set the temp higher for high VG juices, more higher then I would like. I would like at most 220C (428F) as the set temp, but for example for 80VG/20PG I often have to set it around 235C (455F) to 240C (464F) to get a satisfying vape.  

Edited December 24, 2017 by denniz

[denniz]

2 hours ago, retird said:

.The DNA regulates the temperature to a set temperature. (230C in your example). As the temp is met (at 230C) it may overshoot that temp a bit at which time it is regulated down to 230C. Depending on the coil build and other things it may regulate down (under 230F) at which time it will again try to reach 230C.  So it is constantly monitoring and regulating.  Case Analyzer helps by giving the most accurate calibration for temp readings.  Your device is operating as it should..

To get a better look at what your device is doing you might check the following boxes in Device Monitor (see screenshot below I'm using a DNA200 device)). I use these to fine-tune the settings (such as pre-heat, punch, wattage and temp and to do things like monitoring the resistance change of the coil while heating and battery sag, and etc..)

 

I understand that the mod is constantly regulating, but overshooting the temp by more then 10C (50F), sometimes by 15C (59F), I find that a bit to much for my liking. The examples posted by you and Wayneo show much less pronounced peak temp spikes, like a couple of degrees Fahrenheit. While when using a higher VG juice (see my previous post) my mod is overshooting it far more then in your examples!

I will run the case analyzer and then try again.

Edited December 24, 2017 by denniz

[Wayneo]

Device Monitor -> View -> Set Time to like 5 seconds, the screen will be screaming fast. Take Vape. Pause screen and scroll backwards. Move your pointer around the vaping characteristics and it will show values.

[retird]

2 hours ago, denniz said:

I understand that the mod is constantly regulating, but overshooting the temp by more then 10C (50F), sometimes by 15C (59F), I find that a bit to much for my liking. The examples posted by you and Wayneo show much less pronounced peak temp spikes, like a couple of degrees Fahrenheit. While when using a higher VG juice (see my previous post) my mod is overshooting it far more then in your examples!

I will run the case analyzer and then try again.

I've not used any  SS304 wire...... what difference in the temp control do you notice when you reduce the wattage to say 20 or 18 watts.  Do you still get the same results as you first posted?  The regulation I get is a result of tweaking the various settings to achieve the best results.... As the device regulates it has to react to reaching temp setting thus the device will always, for mili-seconds, overshoot temp setting as it reacts and starts to regulate... at least that's my experience... I have seen over-temp readings alot higher than yours and tweaking many things, such as the many settings available, the wire material, the CSV file configuration, the coil design, the wicking, and etc. .... all allow me to get it down to the lowest variance from set point....

If you want to check the boxes in Device Monitor as seen in my example and post a screenshot while you are vaping it may help us understand what your vape is doing....I'm thinkin' that a bit of tweaking will give you better results...

[Wayneo]

3 hours ago, denniz said:

it maxed out at 3C (37F)  to 5C (41F)  above the set temp at the same settings. That's far more to my liking then overshooting it by more then 10C (50F) like it did with the higher VG juice

Sorry, but your numbers don't make sense, at all.

Here's a much easier way, using your initial 230C printscreen, with your values quoted.

230C=446F

230+3=233C=451F

230+5=235C=455F

230+10=240C=464F

Things are not as dismal as you may have thought. Your 3c was only 5f difference (similar to ours), and the worst case was 18F difference

5 hours ago, Wayneo said:

.... on a subsequent vape, will get lower

You probably saw the 3C difference after a vape or two.

[Jo Kuhl]

FWIW - 0,003 Ohms seems a bit low for the device resistance to me. Just in case you haven't done so, set the device resistance to ZERO first in Escribe, then measure the coil resistance (your copper plug) from there (analyse atomizer). This reading will be the device resistance, mine came out at 0,011 Ohms.

[Wayneo]

6 hours ago, denniz said:

The mod internal resistance is set at 0.003 ohm measured with a copper plug I bought specifically for this

@Jo Kuhl Did you measure yours with a copper plug? And you do realize every mod can be different. 

[Jo Kuhl]

No, not a specific copper plug, I used the deck of a Cheetah II and installed the thickest pair of copper wires I could get into the postholes.

And sure, every mod is different, however the difference is three times the OP's measurement.

Edited December 24, 2017 by Jo Kuhl

[denniz]

1 hour ago, retird said:

I've not used any  SS304 wire...... what difference in the temp control do you notice when you reduce the wattage to say 20 or 18 watts.  Do you still get the same results as you first posted?  The regulation I get is a result of tweaking the various settings to achieve the best results.... As the device regulates it has to react to reaching temp setting thus the device will always, for mili-seconds, overshoot temp setting as it reacts and starts to regulate... at least that's my experience... I have seen over-temp readings alot higher than yours and tweaking many things, such as the many settings available, the wire material, the CSV file configuration, the coil design, the wicking, and etc. .... all allow me to get it down to the lowest variance from set point....

If you want to check the boxes in Device Monitor as seen in my example and post a screenshot while you are vaping it may help us understand what your vape is doing....I'm thinkin' that a bit of tweaking will give you better results...

When I lowered the wattage a couple of watts the temp also overshoots in the same region. I don't know the exact figure anymore, because I just made a new coil to check if that might be the problem. I now made a SS304 coil at 0.723 ohm, 3mm diameter, 0.36mm thick wire. Now the peak temp is between 230C to 237C when I set the temp to 230C on the mod with the wattage at 26W to account for the thicker wire I used this time, with a 80VG/20PG juice.

Regardless I will post the measurements you asked for in a bit with the new setup.

 

Edited December 24, 2017 by denniz

[denniz]

35 minutes ago, Wayneo said:

Sorry, but your numbers don't make sense, at all.

Here's a much easier way, using your initial 230C printscreen, with your values quoted.

230C=446F

230+3=233C=451F

230+5=235C=455F

230+10=240C=464F

Things are not as dismal as you may have thought. Your 3c was only 5f difference (similar to ours), and the worst case was 18F difference

You probably saw the 3C difference after a vape or two.

Hmm sorry for that. I just plugged in the individual degrees Celsius into a unit converter to get Fahrenheit, like this:

230C = 446F

3C = 37F

So one might indeed think that 233C = 446F + 37F = 483F, while when putting 233C into the unit converter it actually is 451F. Regardless of this, the total degrees I mentioned in previous posts without adding or subtracting stuff are correct.

 

Edited December 24, 2017 by denniz

[denniz]

29 minutes ago, Jo Kuhl said:

FWIW - 0,003 Ohms seems a bit low for the device resistance to me. Just in case you haven't done so, set the device resistance to ZERO first in Escribe, then measure the coil resistance (your copper plug) from there (analyse atomizer). This reading will be the device resistance, mine came out at 0,011 Ohms.

Well the default mod resistance it came with was 0.004, a figure I read is totally normal with various mods. From what I read most mods have internal resistances ranging from 0.003 to 0.007. So your figure seems way to high. I think the method you used to measure it was not an accurate measurement, since not all copper wires are created equally regarding the quality. I used the copper plug mentioned in the following thread:

 

[Wayneo]

Have a Merry Christmas all, and enjoy your mods. Maybe I'll see ya's next year.

🍪 🥛 🎅  🎄  ⛄ ❄🎄 

[retird]

Same to you @Wayneo and others.... ... I'll be signing off too for several days as Christmas festivities and remembrances are upon us all.....  

[Wayneo]

@denniz One final comment on mod res. I also have and use that Copper Plug. Mine all range from .002 - .007 I never commented because I totally felt that could be a valid value. Believe me, I get enough flak bringing up that feature around here.

 

Ho! Ho! Ho! 

[Jo Kuhl]

vor 14 Minuten schrieb denniz:

Well the default mod resistance it came with was 0.004, a figure I read is totally normal with various mods. From what I read most mods have internal resistances ranging from 0.003 to 0.007. So your figure seems way to high. I think the method you used to measure it was not an accurate measurement, since not all copper wires are created equally regarding the quality. I used the copper plug mentioned in the following thread:

 

Thanks for that link, Denniz! Indeed my 'measurement' seems to be way off now. Probably best to revert to the default setting for now. Happy holidays, all!

[denniz]

1 hour ago, retird said:

if you want to check the boxes in Device Monitor as seen in my example and post a screenshot while you are vaping it may help us understand what your vape is doing....I'm thinkin' that a bit of tweaking will give you better results...

Hmm, I'm having a bit of trouble getting consistent results. After I made a new coil I also refilled the tank with the 80VG/20PG juice, it wicked a whole lot better then the previous build I mentioned in the beginning of the thread without raising the temp above 230C (446F). I noticed that with a full tank the peak temp stayed well below the set temp, sometimes as much as 20C (68F), although the vape was still very warm and nice. I continued to vape it to see if the peak temp would rise again like it did on my previous build. Since it's a 2ml tank I got my answer quickly enough... I noticed when the tank got emptier and emptier the peak temp would rise more and more. When the juice was just above the juice holes, so it still wicked, then the peak temp was at 240C (464F), while the set temp was still a 230C (446F).

I got perfect wicking and a nice vape the whole time from a full to an almost empty tank with the new build. The previous build wasn't very satisfactory wicking wise.  Why would the peak temp slowly rise when the tank got emptier? A bit puzzled now... something to do with the vacuum in the tank?

In short at what point is a good time to post the graph, at a full, medium or almost empty tank...

Edited December 24, 2017 by denniz

[denniz]

24 minutes ago, Jo Kuhl said:

Thanks for that link, Denniz! Indeed my 'measurement' seems to be way off now. Probably best to revert to the default setting for now. Happy holidays, all!

My pleasure, glad it was of use!

 

Also happy holidays everybody! Have a nice 2018!