Bobby

So why has nobody in the vapor community debunked the fairytale of TC on stainless steel? I did not read this anywhere. Did I miss this? Sure you can get a decent vape on stainless steel as long as you take care that the setpoint temperature is not reached and the mod is not regulating the power to maintain the temperature. You could also say that, in reality TC is mend to be temperature limiting but with a temperature error of >100F, it will not even do that properly when using stainless steel. If you want to look at TC with other mods that do not have a device monitor, you can hook up an oscilloscope and look at the voltage. If you see a smooth drop in the voltage, the mod is regulating the power properly to maintain the temperature. If you see an erratic curve, the mod is not regulating the power properly. I do not have the setup to do this but some of the reviewers do, for example: here is the German reviewer Obi doing this (on a DNA200 with a Ni200 coil). Why haven't any of them done this with stainless steel? To avoid misunderstandings: I do not have a problem since I do not have issues using Ni200 or Ti and also can get a decent vape out of SS. This is only to expand my knowledge and understanding about my vaping hobby.

Hmmm, it's my impression that most of the factory coils and popular wires tend to be 316L and the 'succes stories' I see use this wire or these coils. Do I understand you correctly that you are saying that true TC on wire that has a TCR in the 0.001 region is not possible, so the succes stories I read of SS316L are actually based on vaping this in VW mode with a temperature limit (like the first screenshot of Vapertron)? I will see if I can get some SS410 to test if this will do true TC. In the meantime it would be great to see a screenshot of the device monitor with this wire.

Fair enough. If you consider that behavior as working temperature control and are happy vaping it like that, I guess we have nothing more to discuss. I consider that erratic behavior not a 'working' TC since the temperature error is much too big ( >60 - 100F) and my actual problem with that, is the resulting inconsistency of the vape and the variation in taste and warmth. Such a large error is not 'control' but a poor attempt to regulate. According to what I read on forums, other mods seem to do a good job with TC on SS, so why not the DNA200?

@Vaportron Sorry to break the news to you but you are not vaping with TC! I mentioned in my previous post that I get a good vape with SS in power mode or in TC mode when I set the power and temperature setpoints at such levels that TC never kicks in. The last one is what you do; If you look at the power in your screenshot, it is a flat line so TC is not adjusting the power to maintain the temperature. What you do is in essence the same as vaping in power mode. If you take a look at my post #19 in This discussion you'll see that I can do the same as you (bottom picture) but I also show the problem the DNA200 has when vaping SS with TC regulating (top picture) I continue to challenge anyone who claims that they have TC with Stainless Steel working well for them, to post a device monitor screenshot. Please, please proof me wrong!

I am at the point that I am convinced the DNA200 is not working properly with TC on stainless Steel. I challenge anyone who claims that they have TC with Stainless Steel working well for them, to post a device monitor screenshot. Please, please proof me wrong! I get a good vape with SS in power mode or in TC mode when I set the power and temperature setpoints at such levels that TC never kicks in (but the last mode of vaping is essentially the same as the first). When the power and temperature settings are so that TC kicks in and is regulating the power, it is doing so erratically (see: Post #19 in This discussion). I get the same erratic results no matter what atomizer, SS wire, factory SS coils and profile settings I use.

Btw: are you aware that these numbers are too high for SS316L? In all my 4 csv files (collected from different sources) the numbers are ~ 0.1 lower.

I would copy/paste the list you posted in a .txt file, save it, change the extension to .csv, load it in EScribe and upload it to the mod. A .csv file can be edited manually as a plain text file by using notepad.exe (or as .CSV file with Excel off course). To tweak the y-value of the points by keyboard input, you can right-click the point. If TC is not working, it might be that the build you are using has a big mass (e.g. Claptons, etc.) and is heating up too slow. I read somewhere that this should be bigger than 150 degree F in 1s or TC will not be activated and the set power will be applied without TC regulation. If this is the case you can increase the pre-heat/punch settings.

@HugeEgo Thanks for the reply, mate. Although it did not provide the explanation, it made me rethink the case and I think I found the error in my logic: The resistance (and temperature) cannot be measured directly. The voltage and current are measured and with these measurements, the resistance and temperature are calculated using the reference values at room temperature and the TCR. The total ?R (and therefor the ?R per degree C) might be the same for the SS316L and Ni200 examples, but the total ?U and ?I (and therefor the ?U and ?I per degree C) are not. These are much smaller for the 316L coil compared to the Ni200 coil (and the Ti coil, see tabel below). So the inaccuracy comes from the low rate of change in voltage and current as the temperature changes. A small error in these measurements - due to fluctuation and/or due to the fact that these values are close to the resolution of the measurement system - has a big impact on the calculated temperature. This might be why the regulation is erratic with as low TCR values as Stainless Steel. I also wonder if this erratic regulation also occurs with other mods and Stainless steel, but nobody is aware of it since you cannot see the TC graph?! These are just my thoughts so it would be nice, to get confirmation of this theory by Evolv or another expert. P= 15,00 W ?T= 212°C Wire type ?20oC ?220oC ?T1-T2 U20oC U232oC UT1-T2 I20oC I232oC IT1-T2 ?U per oC ?I per oC SS316L (V4A) 0,341 ? 0,408 ? 0,067 ? 2,26 V 2,47 V 0,21 V 6,63 A 6,07 A 0,57 A 0,99 mV 2,67 mA Ni200 0,050 ? 0,116 ? 0,066 ? 0,87 V 1,32 V 0,45 V 17,32 A 11,39 A 5,94 A 2,13 mV 28,00 mA Ti Gr I 0,247 ? 0,430 ? 0,183 ? 1,92 V 2,54 V 0,62 V 7,79 A 5,90 A 1,89 A 2,90 mV 8,91 mA

For the measurement system the only thing that really matters is the change of resistance per degree C of the coil that it measures. - With a 0.049 ohm Ni200 build (TCR = 0.00641) the ?R per degree C is ~0.314 milliohm. - With a 0.47 ohm SS304 build (TCR = 0.00105) the ?R per degree C is ~0.5 milliohm. - With a 0.35 ohm SS316L coil (TCR = 0.00092) the ?R per degree C of ~0.3 milliohm. The TC system regulates the first one without problems and shows a smooth curve, so why the erratic regulation with the other 2? Simplified, what I think happens is: Once the fire button is pressed, the system sets the power and continuously measures the live resistance. Besides the switch from punch power to setpoint power, it does not change the power as long as the temperature setpoint is not reached. Once the temperature setpoint is reached, the TC system uses a regulation algorithm (programmed in the firmware) to set the power to a level that will increase or decrease the temperature. The use of a damping factor prevents too large adjustments. This is done in a loop until the fire button is released. The damping factor is probably calculated using the TCR value of the wire type. With Ni and Ti the damping factor is correct, so the size of the power adjustments are appropriate, preventing the temperature from wildly overshooting. With SS the damping factor is wrong and the size of the power adjustments are too large, causing the temperature to overshoot every time. According to my logic; if a proper damping factor calculation is used with SS, this can be prevented.

Well, the erratic behavior occurs on different atomizers, DIY coils and factory coil heads, on SS304 and SS316L, when using different CSV files and when using the TCR setting, with and without preheat. Other users have confirmed that it happens also on different brands of DNA200 mods, and using different profile settings and that different TC wire (e.g. Ni200) with coils with a lower ?R per degree C will produce a smooth graph I think that that rules out: bad connections of the atomizer, the coil build/head, a possible wrong composition of SS wire, wrong TFR, wrong settings, a specific brand of DNA200 mod, usererror and measurement inaccuracy. I think the only thing left is a bug in the TC firmware when using SS. Can somebody from Evolv comment? Is this a know issue?

@Voku; Thanks mate! So I guess it is what it is with SS and I haven't screwed up. I know that the real temperature of the coil cannot jump so quickly, so what I see is because of the inaccuracy of the measurements. Therefor I also suspected that the SS316L problem was due to too small differences in resistance because of the low TCR and that, because of this, the measurement system cannot measure it as accurately as Ni/Ti, but I don't think it is. I started this topic about the measurement accuracy and Vapingbad posted smooth Ni and Ti graphs with coils that have a similar ?R per degree C compared to my SS coils. The cold resistance of my SS304 dual coil was 0.47 Ohm. The TCR of 0.00105 results in a ?R per degree C of ~0.5 mOhm. My SS316L coil is 0.35 Ohm and the TCR of 0.00092 results in a ?R per degree C of ~0.3 mOhm. So I still can't figure out why SS does this or am I missing something?.

Thanks for your thoughts, guys. Off course I can use another type of TC wire (and I do) since I do not have any issue with Ni or Ti and it works great, but a lot of vapers comment that SS is the best TC vape since sliced bread, but my DNA 'can't handle' it. If this is a fact of DNA200-life and nothing can be done about it, so be it. I'd be more than happy to use Ni, Ti or any of the other TC wire but I do not understand this and that bugs the hell outta me. So anybody, please heeeelp!

I also can't get SS to work properly in TC. Once TC kicks in, the graph will become erratic. I have no problems with Ni200 and Ti. With those wires TC works like a charm, ever time, all the time (you can take a look here). I have tried SS with several different settings, with dual SS304 coils in an Aromamizer and with a factory SS316L coil in an Ijoy Reaper Tank (the graphs below are with this tank). With both atty's I get a similar behavior. For me, this rules out the atty, the build and wire and poor wire-in-post connections. I have also tried it without preheat but this only slows the heat-up of the coil, so it will take longer for the problem to show up, but does not solve it. Two questions: 1. Can anybody explain the erratic behavior and offer a solution? 2. If anyone has this working, can you please post the graph of a working TC on SS316 (or another SS) and your settings, so I know what I am doing wrong? The first graph is an example of the erratic behavior. The second one is the behavior if TC doesn't kick in (ie. the Temp doesn't not reach the setpoint). I now use this 'high temp protection' setting to get a decent vape but it is not temperature control as it should be. (I have made my own graphs from the recorded data, since I can't see the resistance variation very well in the device monitor, due to the low resolution. The resistance uses the secondary axis on the right)

[QUOTE=pol]@ Bobby, ..... Author software drowned these texts inside EScribe.exe You see in the file EScribe.exe (For an atomizer to work....) In these cases it is necessary to change the way writing texts by author software. I think so.... .......... [/QUOTE] I know that the these are either hardcoded in de program or misspelled msgid's. I was telling to James (who works for Evolv), that there were msgid's missing in the Example Language File.po and listed all missing msgid's in a textfile (including the ones that do not work). Here is missing msgid's tekstfile 1.1 (your additions included): http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=86272781969754786094 [QUOTE=pol]@ Bobby, ....... In NL Language EScribe.zip I do not see: ....... [/QUOTE] Thank you for the info. I uploaded my latest version with your additions included (NL language file version 1.8; see this post for info and download location) @james: I also found a language related 'bug' in the Case and Battery analysis windows: Upon entering the analyzer, the text on the 'record' button is properly translated. After clicking 'record' and then 'stop record', the record button does not show the translation anymore but the English default. And to be complete: There are 2 issues due to the poor implementation of regional settings in EScribe. Both related to the swapping of the dot and comma as thousands separator and decimal point: - The earlier reported import problem of importing an .esig file made on a non-European windows system, if done on a European windows system - The bug that when you save measurements on a European Windows system to a CSV file (e.g. hit 'record' in the device monitor) Escribe still saves the numbers with a decimal point (instead of a decimal comma) and in a comma separated CSV file. This means that you first have to swap all dots and comma's on a European Windows system before you can use the file. We (European Mainlanders) use decimal comma's and tab separated csv files.

@pol: Thank you. I can only see 1 msgid that you got the translation working for, namely: msgid "All default screens Copyright 2015 {0} Inc. For use only in {0} electronics.", or are there more? If not, there are still 15 more in my list of 86, that do not work and need attention.

Very useful information. Thanks. Now I know that the measurement resolution is not the cause (and is probably better than 1 mOhm), so I can look for improvement in another direction.

Thanks for the reply. The 'jumpy' vape is not a problem since it stays within an acceptable margin but I am looking for a confirmation of my assumptions. I am aware that a higher 'cold' resistance will increase the accuracy. The cold resistance of the SS304 dual coil is 0.47 Ohm. With a TCR of 0.00105, I will get a ?R per degree C of ~0.5 mOhm. If this is the measurement resolution (or lower than it), it would explain the 'jumpy' vape.

I did not yet get an answer to this question. Now I recently started to vape on Stainless Steel and see a vape that is a lot less smooth than Ti (see picture). I suspect that this is due to the fact that the ?R per degree is close to the measurement resolution. Does anybody know what this is for the DNA200?

The rx200 is imo no alternative for the dna200. The rx200 is a good alternative for other high wattage mods but they all work with factory presets you can choose but not modify. The user adjustable presets are imo the big advantage of the DNA200 not the wattage. The DNA200 stands alone in this until other configurable mods enter the market (like the opensource Whiteout OS). The advantage of the Reuleaux DNA200 over most other DNA200 mods, is the use of multiple 18650's resulting in a longer vapetime. Most mods have lipo's that do not exceed the capacity of a single 18650

Guess the mods are still sleeping. PS: It's Korean but nonsense (just repeating the words 'baccarat' and 'philippines')

As I said: the current shown is not the current of the battery, unless you have a different EScribe version than 1.0.35. Example: Coil 0,2 ohm, Power set to 50W @ coil: V=3,2V I=15,8A (= 50W) @ battery: V=11,1V I=1,8A (= 50W)

As far as I know the voltage and current shown are over/though the coil (read: the output of the DC-to-DC converter) and say nothing about the voltage and current actually @ the battery (read: the input of the DC-to-DC converter). You do have the possibility to monitor the total battery (and/or the 3 cell) voltage(s) not the current. The DNA hardware monitors for battery safety (and does a good job) but I agree that it would be nice to have the option to show the current. I do not know if there is a hardware sensor for this.

@manny: Do you have the lastest firmware installed? (See first post in this thread and /topic/67786-topic/?do=findComment&comment=910212) (and if this works but the graphs don't load correctly see /topic/67562-topic/?do=findComment&comment=908009 )

James: I checked to make sure and I am using Escribe version 1.0.35.2 and firmware version: 2015-09-30. Extra info: - with the 'US esig file' only the material profile curves and the discharge curve get mixed up by the US number format. All other values do not have a problem. - I experienced the same problem with the esig setting file from Vapor Shark (makes sense since that was created on a US system too). - Beside this, there is no problem loading and saving esig and/or csv files using EScribe on my system with the Windows number format set to European

It is only happening when you have a windows system with a European number format and load an esig file that was created/stored on a windows system with a US number format. Within either windows setup's there is no problem loading and saving esig and/or csv files. I agree that Evolv should correct this if they can but it could be a windows related 'glitch'.