DNA 200 or Lavabox

[Tepid]

NOTE: As a tech, I hate when people throw the word bug around. And I just found myself guilty of it.
My apologies to Evolv for my bone headedness and lack of understanding.
Let this thread be a lesson to anyone that feels such urge out of frustration to do the same, in life, in general.
Also note, that, Ti setups are not as tedious or finicky as they might seem to be at first.
If you are new to TC and just looking around here, or interested in the DNA 200.
Read this thread. Believe me, you will learn something, just as I did.

*****************************
There are a lot of bugs that need to be worked out of the DNA 200
Especially when it comes to Ti Wire and custom TCR files

Either it is the DNA 200 or the Lavabox I am not entirely sure.
But, I have to assume it is the DNA 200 itself.

TCR files for custom Wire does not upload properly.
It can take several soft and hard reboots to get the DNA 200 to recognize and work properly
with a custom TCR file.

It will sit there and clock around under 10W and then hit Temp Protect
I have gotten it to work, but again, after several reboots, resets, re-uploading, switch profiles and then it will start working.

This is not a build or RDA issue. Tobecco Velocity and a Hellboy clones both act the same way.
Single coil spaced, both 26Ga and 24Ga.

I finally figured out Preheat settings and not to over do them or you will get glowing coils.

So, before anyone starts throwing around, "It's your Atty/Build", I promise you it isn't.

So, my request is for Evolv to work more on fixing bugs in the software and the firmware.
They need it desperately.

This is in both
1.0.32 (FW: 2015-08-21.sw-update)
1.035.2 (FW: 2015-09-30.sw-update)

They both act the same way.

Again, not the build or the atty when I can get them both to work after many resets, reboots, re-uploads, switching profiles between custom and default Nickle Profiles
of the same settings file, only then does it take effect and start working.

Thanks.

[blueridgedog]

I am curious what make you conclude that escribe is not taking the curve file.  Selecting a profile, then loading the TCR curve to that profile, then saving that profile to the device should work without a device reboot.  Once you are vaping in that profile, is it then you feel a need to reboot?

What typically happens is that once in a TCR profile, if the TCR value the chip sees is lower than that specified, it will go into non TC mode.  A reboot will only get it to re-read the resistance and re-calculate the observed TCR of the wire installed.  

I suggest you run atomizer analyzer with a short between your coil posts to see what resistance your atomizer is adding to the mix.  If you have a significant amount of atomizer resistance, then it could push the total resistance to a point where they small TCR change in your wire is not sufficient to trigger TC mode.  Without the base resistance of your atomizer, and having that value keyed into escribe, lower TCR wires like Ti will be hard to use, especially if your atomizer has a high base resistance.  It will be impossible if your atomizer has a significant amount of variable resistance. 

[Tepid]

Note: After posting this and letting the DNA 200 sit for a few minutes, it is doing it again.
Low Watt Temp Protect. nothing changed from my last vape when it was working.
Other than the case cooled.Tried doing a soft reboot, and nothing, same issue,
Switch to a Nickle Profile, no issues. This is without a doubt a custom TFR issue.

1.035.2 (FW: 2015-09-30.sw-update)

Thank you for replying.
But I'm not buying it.
The Mod works all day long on Ni200 for Coil Material
But as soon as I load a Custom TFR/TCR it goes all wonky on that profile


I can run my atty's in Ni200 profile, at 100W +/- less, like most mods that don't support Ti, it works all day long. This has ZERO to do with not detecting Temp Mode.
Cause it hits Temp Protect. Not gonna hit Temp Protect if it is not detecting Temp Control.

I have tried Steam Engine Ti Grade 1 and Grade 2
And I did it again. and it took a Soft Reset of the device to get the Profile to start working
And it is working as it should.

Profile 1,
 
Load CSV
Upload Settings to Device
Hit the fire button

Settings go all Wonky
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Im2LUY3MPY

Soft Reset the device and everything works. Sometimes it takes a few re-uploads and resets to get it to work.

This is why I am thinking that the DNA 200 is not loading/reading Custom TFR files properly.
While I was actually using it, it went into Low Watt Temp Protect. This is what I am calling it.
It sticks around 10 Watts and hits Temp Protect and produces no vapor at all.
This is a bug in Custom TFR. Cause it does not do this when using Nickle Profile.

Evolv needs to build a default Ti Coil Material Profile and fix Custom TFR.

However, I am willing to figure out what it takes to make it work properly, efficiently and stable with Ti.
I just don't think we can do this. It's in the Firmware/Software. more than likely the Firmware.

One thing that this still needs is for it to cut off power completely when it actually hits Temp Protect.
it doesn't do this. it needs to treat it like a Dry Coil.
Hit Temp Protect and it stops firing till you release the fire button.

I uderstand what Temp Protect is doing. And you want to bring your Watts down to just under where your Temp maxes out.
This is all fine, but it should cut power when it hits Temp Protect, cause this is more about stopping Cotton Singe and possible over heat of the coil.

I know it stops for a moment till it cools and if you keep firing it will hold that temp and keep cutting out.
but it is slightly inefficient way of doing it.

This is what I believe the Yihi Chips do.

I am still on the fence about Ti anyway, and won't do Nickle.

Bottom line, from everything that I am seeing, the DNA 200 does not handle Custom TFR very well at this time.


Side Note:

[VapingBad]

I see you have a mod res test with a veloicty reading 0.013, if you set your mod res anywhere that it could be at least part of the problem.  I tested my 1590A mod with a varitube like that and got 0.010, but with a solid copper bar I got 0.005 and a soldered carto 0.004, I set it to 0.003.
    
 
  

[Tepid]

I have to say, this is where the IPV3 Li actually has a huge advantage over most others.
They support Ti and it seems to be pretty proper, I can set it and it works. Dry Hot (Temp Protect) kicks in and stops firing.
Get the Resistance set proper and it just works.

I understand this is a hobbist device that is not plug and play.
But let's get real here,

"

If you have a significant amount of atomizer resistance, then it could push the total resistance to a point where they small TCR change in your wire is not sufficient to trigger TC mode.  Without the base resistance of your atomizer, and having that value keyed into escribe, lower TCR wires like Ti will be hard to use, especially if your atomizer has a high base resistance.  It will be impossible if your atomizer has a significant amount of variable resistance."

Then this is a HUGE flaw in the design. But, this is also not the case, TC Mode is kicking in.
The DNA 200 just doesn't know how to handle Custom TFR.

[VapingBad]

It only requires a 150 F change in coil temp in the first second, but if the materials profile is not correct for the wire and they vary with Ti and even more so with SS or you do not get a good cold res reading it will upset things.  Mod resistance unless it is set too high is very unlikely to, but the mad maker should have set it so it should not be something the user has to worry about.  Better to not set mod res than set it too high it will just mean the temp reading will be off at very low resistances.

Lots of people are having great results with custom materials profiles, but it can be a challenge to get the correct one for your wire with alloys like Ti and SS, also don't rule out connection issues.

[Spirometry]

I don't understand what is wonky in your video. Looks normal for Ti and no airflow. The only thing I don't understand is why you had it set at 280°f, i hope your not trying to vape at that temp.

[VapingBad]

I just looked at the video and agree with Spiromentry it seems to be working fine for with no air flow, I only posted before after seeing the res test with a velocity and reading warnings about setting mod res too high.

[Tepid]

I had set mod resistance for 0.007 according Lavabox site. But produced same results. I will test some more. http://www.volcanoecigs.com/blog/evolv-escribe-use-with-the-lavabox-dna-200.html?utm_source=EmailDirect.com&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=LAVABOX+DNA+200

[VapingBad]

I would look at the results while vaping rather that with no airflow, you vid did show it regulating temp, maybe the wrong temp ATM.  I would try and find someone using the same wire successfully and use the materials profile they have as they vary quit a bit.

[Tepid]

It's UnkamenSupplies 24G Wire, But I also have 26G and both act the same way.
I have also set the Mod Res to 0 and most of the time it has been at 0
But results are no different at the .007 or 0.

Trying .004

Also, the coil is not dry.
It should be doing something more and does with juice on it when it's working correctly.
So the air flow thing is not it. I know what you all are saying about Airflow, but that should only be the case with a dry coil.
It should be doing something, but it doesn't do anything. Watch the video again, there should be a plum of vapor when it hits the preheat, there is nothing at all.


You can't go lower than 200*F
Anything lower than about 270 and there is no flavor at all.

***************some time later**********
I did Contact Coils this time
Set the Mod Resistance to 0.005
The reason is, in the Pic that I took of the Atty Analyzer, you will see the Nominal Temp Res is 0.006
80% of that is 0.0048 rounded to 0.005

I vaped on this a bit and it is working, after, again, a couple of soft reboots and re-uploads.

But, here is the other part, and I am still testing, cause it was working, then after sitting for a bit, it stopped and was acting up again
But I realized that my ohms were not locked.

I have to Lock the ohms.

In my case. and without much real math, and a lot of guessing.
Cold Raw Ohm coil is about .24, But with the Atty itself figured in, and it being 0.013 ohm
and take into account some possible other resistances, not including, or maybe including Mod Resistance.
and some rounding, Locked Ohms at 0.30. I know, that statement makes no sense. Common Core anyone?

But looking again at the Atty Analyzer of a Cold Coil
It's reading 0.23Ohm for Nominal Temp
So, that is a .07 difference
Even tough I set it to .005

I really don't get it. But for now it seems stable.

I am hitting right around 275*F at 22W on a .24Ohm (Locked at .30ohm) contact coil of Ti 26g , 8Wrap , 2.5mm ID

Set your Temp 10 to 15* higher than what you expect to vape at
Set your Watts to just under what you expect to vape at

Preheat Power 100W
Preheat Punch is 11
Preheat Time Limit 0.5s

See Screenshots Attached.

If you are still struggling with Ti Wire, this is the formula more or less.

I appreciate everyone's posts and comments. They didn't fall on deaf ears.
And this isn't done yet. we will see how this goes.
I will be back to tell you.

[Spirometry]

In your video, there was no vapor because it was set at 280°f. 100% PG has a boiling point of 370° add some VG to that and you will have to adjust your temperature even higher.

What you are doing with all the resets is locking in on the wrong cold resistance. You have to do it several times until you find one that compensates well with the extremely low temperature setting you have set.   

It is a lot easier to just put a cold atomizer on a cold mod then set your temperature to a setting that hot enough to boil your liquid.

[Tepid]

I make my own juices. They are 20/80VG. I don't know the exact reasons for misfire, but it had something to do with the mod not reading ohms law or something and misfiring. It's right there in the screenshot of Bad Fire I posted. Then you can see the good fire shots I posted. It's still firing proper now with ohms locked at .30. I have more testing to do.

[Tepid]

I really am trying to understand what is going on here.
I don't like throwing around allegations of bugs. I'm a veteran tech, I know what I am talking about when it comes to such things.
However, I did and I think I might be wrong, maybe.

I was wrong about the Reboots. The issue there is, I was warming the coil enough to hit the minimum resistance to get a proper fire for a bit.
Till it cooled again and then misfire at low resistance. Blueridgedog and Vaping Bad are more on track I think.
I think the TFR is wrong for this wire, OR there is an overall issue with firing at such a low resistance in general.
But I see others hitting .14 etc.

Note, when it is misfiring, it doesn't matter what the Watts, Temp I set are. It will continue to do so.
I also notice now that it is doing the same under a Nickle Profile. So I was wrong about that as well.

https://youtu.be/G_a_z__72cg

1.) No, it's not the juice.
2.) No, it's not a dry coil, or Air Flow issue.

It's an, it won't fire under .30ohm issue. That should not be an issue.
So really, Profile does not matter. TFR doesn't seem to matter.

Firmware version doesn't seem to matter.
Setting MOD Res doesn't matter
Overall Temp of the Case doesn't matter

As long as it is locked at .30ohm, it will fire and TC as it should.

Need to figure out where to go from here.

BTW, my IPV3 Li and Sigelei 150W TC's handle this build just fine at it's cold ohm setting of around 0.23ohm.

[VapingBad]

You still have the temp very low @ 290 F, most people vape over 400 F, 380 myself and the result of locking the cold res higher is shifting it along the temp scale so the actual coil temp will be a lot higher than the setting.   IIWU I would use the cold res that the DNA worked out 0.14 and raise the temp limit to 400 - 450 F and see where that get you, and remember that it is always going to throttle the power a lot with no air flow to cool it. 

I did a small poll a while ago and most people vaped in the 401-425 F (205-218 C) range, it is a very small sample though.

[Spirometry]

I vape a Velocity Ti dual coil 20/80vg at 490°f, 60 watts, 125w preheat.

290° is below the boiling point of your liquid.

I also saw in one of your screen shots that you found my custom screen for the Velocity   

[Tepid]

Your right, and it makes more sense now. It was my (and many others) lack of understanding Temp Coefficients of Resistance.
So, the TFR could still be off a bit. But is it significant enough to matter?

I know this coil has a cold ohm of .23
the atty itself is .013
the mod is, according to Volcano, 0.007, I should retest this though trying the copper rod method
i will case analyze this mod when i deplete the battery about 60%.

i changed the mod res back to 0.007
where do I put the off set .013 for the atty resistance?


locking the ohms at .23
right now I have to push it to 530° or so, to fire it. it's a bit hot
Can the TFR be modified to compensate?

How do we go about keeping cotton from singeing at too high temps when we hit dry coil?

Thanks for helping.

[Tepid]

Yes, I did, and many others
Thanks

I will share my Lavabox Welcome screen

 

that second one i am still working on

[Spirometry]

Mod resistance: 0.007? would be a save number to use no matter what atty you attach.
I personally would use 80% of the 0.013? that you tested. So I would set mod resistance at 0.010?.

Another thing to look for in atomizer analyzer is the room temperature. If the the room temp reading is nowhere close to the actual room temp, then your base cold ohms setting will be off. In this type of situation it is best to let refinement do its job. Just set the mod down for 20 minutes or so, disconnected from usb. After that time period go back and adjust your temperature if needed.

I don't really worry about burning cotton. Under normal vaping conditions, you will loose vapor production and lack of flavor long before you burn the wick.

[VapingBad]

If you see my post #4 a Velocity with 3 x 2.5 mm square accounted for 0.006 on my tests, so I would suggest 0.006 or 0.007 for mod res as making it to high apparently leads to instability.

 

[whitaker2472]

Just turn your temp down to 420 or around there. Once the tfr is set u don't need to adjust it to get your temp. Just adjust the temp. The dna actually does better than yihi chip on what the temp should be. Thats if build and connections are all good

[Brigrz81]

VapingBad said:

You still have the temp very low @ 290 F, most people vape over 400 F, 380 myself and the result of locking the cold res higher is shifting it along the temp scale so the actual coil temp will be a lot higher than the setting.   IIWU I would use the cold res that the DNA worked out 0.14 and raise the temp limit to 400 - 450 F and see where that get you, and remember that it is always going to throttle the power a lot with no air flow to cool it. 

I did a small poll a while ago and most people vaped in the 401-425 F (205-218 C) range, it is a very small sample though.

[Brigrz81]

Yes 400 degree temp for ni200 wire. But for ti wire its much much lower. Have been vaping ti wire for a long time at 290 degrees to 365 degrees and all my cold coil resistance have been between .13 ohms all way up to .3ohms. Downloaded my ti wire file off of sweet spot vapors and has worked flawlessly everytime. Never have had to set me temp anywhere close to 400 degrees.

[Tepid]

Well, I have always been on the fence about Ti wire. Have SS430 on order from UnkamenSupplies. We will see how this works out. So far, the Lavabox is giving me very noticeable smooth vapes over my other mods on my Kanthal Dual Clapton builds. Impressively smooth.

[VapingBad]

Brigrz81 said:

Yes 400 degree temp for ni200 wire. But for ti wire its much much lower. Have been vaping ti wire for a long time at 290 degrees to 365 degrees and all my cold coil resistance have been between .13 ohms all way up to .3ohms. Downloaded my ti wire file off of sweet spot vapors and has worked flawlessly everytime. Never have had to set me temp anywhere close to 400 degrees.

People vape Ti setting the temp limit about 90 F lower when using it with a Ni200 profile/TCR to get 90 F higher than the limit at the coil, but this shouldn't be necessary with a proper Ti materials profile.