Thelema 250c With Wotofo Profile X SUS316L Issues

[Navi]

Hey Everyone,

Been lurking long enough and went back and forth with support as well on how in the hell to make this Thelema and Wotofo Profile X work in TC mode properly. Had some successes mostly frustrations though. Figured I'd bring it up to the larger community and see if we can nail this one in hopes to also have it available easily for future people.
Setup:
Thelema 250c
Wotofo Profile X (this ends up being the profile 1.5 coils/mesh)
Wotofo SUS316L Coils (Ohms ~0.15)
Using the stock 316 profile and downloaded a 316L profile from Steam Engine 

Done Case Analyzer correctly (which fixed the cold/ambient temp read a ton was off initially by +- 20 degrees, usually up)

Already changed internal mod resistance from stock value of 0.004 to 0.006 (this was at the recommendation of support, lovely gentleman cause I would have told me to just give up and leave me alone)

Have tried hard setting ohms, changing internal resistance to get to the ~0.15 ohms (usually reads about 2.2-2.4 above at the stock internal res of 0.004, Have it right now reading 0.166 stable no fluctuation with atomizer analyzer at 0.006 internal res, but vapor production is relatively non-existent until we get up to the 480+ range which just can't be right), but I haven't tried chucking it in a blender but I'm getting close.

Whenever I get a cold reading its letting it cool, or when the coil is freshly bent to shape and inserted (so it hasn't been heated and should thus have a correct cold reading). Have had some luck a few times but not consistent enough to actually enjoy the beauty of TC yet. 

Adding images cause ya'll will ask for em

 

[dwcraig1]

Being SS316L it is an alloy which could vary wildly from the recommended TCR. Start by using just wattage to get an idea of how much wattage that it can handle going by taste the back it off some. I'm looking at your cold vs live ohms, give the TCR value a try for SS340 and manually adjust the SS430 value from there.

Recommended value for SS430 is 0.00138, use SteamEngine's CSV file or what came on your mod for starters.

This is how I would go about it.

[Wayneo]

Great first post @Navi and those screenshots are always helpful/key. 👍 

Just a few questions and comments.
I can tell you've been lurking by your inclusion of that extra vertical line on the first 2 puffs. Normally we like to see it near the beginning, lowest voltage point (like you did) for battery sag, and in the middle of an puff for abnormal working conditions.

Usually with mesh, ensuring both sides are evenly and fully inserted are vital. Following that, a low glowing (10-15 watts to burn oils off, and ensuring it's heating properly), then sitting for 10-15 minutes so everything cools to ambient temp. After all that it is time to remeasure the coil ohms before or after wicking. You should 99% of the time answer 'yes' if the mod asks if it's a new coil if prompted.

You mentioned 'support' twice. Was that Evolv support?

6 hours ago, Navi said:

Have tried hard setting ohms, changing internal resistance to get to the ~0.15 ohms (usually reads about 2.2-2.4 above at the stock internal res of 0.004, Have it right now reading 0.166 stable no fluctuation with atomizer analyzer at 0.006 internal res, but vapor production is relatively non-existent until we get up to the 480+ range

You should never hard set the ohms. That value is what the mod has read. I think you meant .22Ω and .24Ω 
I have always vaped a tank or two in straight watts profile, (no boost) to get a feeling for what/how to setup my TC parameters. Can you do that and tell me what's a great watts for you?

One last comment for the future. Can you drop/uncheck those last 2 boxes down in the Statistics area as it muddies the display. 

[Navi]

3 hours ago, Wayneo said:

Just a few questions and comments.
I can tell you've been lurking by your inclusion of that extra vertical line on the first 2 puffs. Normally we like to see it near the beginning, lowest voltage point (like you did) for battery sag, and in the middle of an puff for abnormal working conditions.

Is the reason for lowest, as you said battery sag, something with the batteries being low amps or something essentially? (I just like science unfortunately)

Middle looks good to me no crazy fluxs

 

3 hours ago, Wayneo said:

Usually with mesh, ensuring both sides are evenly and fully inserted are vital. Following that, a low glowing (10-15 watts to burn oils off, and ensuring it's heating properly), then sitting for 10-15 minutes so everything cools to ambient temp. After all that it is time to remeasure the coil ohms before or after wicking. You should 99% of the time answer 'yes' if the mod asks if it's a new coil if prompted.

You mentioned 'support' twice. Was that Evolv support?

So thats an interesting point. Both sides are fully inserted and evenly (I always do a check to make sure my top of mesh is flat as it should be if its fully inserted and doesn't create a high spot for hot spots to develop. Is the low glow an absolute must? I haven't been doing that after reading it could damage the SS. But, I've seen conflicting comments on annealing and first heating to kind of "align" the structure of the metals? I always do a brand new coil by answering yes (but in reality I use Escribe analyzer first and then measure on Escribe and then upload those settings to the device. Sometimes I do with with just the mod and no Escribe.

It was Evolv Support!

3 hours ago, Wayneo said:

You should never hard set the ohms. That value is what the mod has read. I think you meant .22Ω and .24Ω 

So unfortunately no. I've tossed these coils on other mods and have gotten the 0.15 reading (the only one I have to test is me or my wifes topside Dual). So out of the box the mod read about +-0.02 ohms above the actual coil. After setting the internal resistance this mostly fell in line to getting accurate readings. And after looking at my batteries.... I think they may be apart of the issue. I have Hohm Life batteries and they say lowest resistance is 0.16 LMAO So looks like I need new batteries. Any suggestions? This may fully be my problem. Think I want to try the battery change before I try to cobble together another solution. Rather get all the appropriate ducks in order 

[Wayneo]

1 hour ago, Navi said:

Is the reason for lowest, as you said battery sag, something with the batteries being low amps or something essentially? ... I have Hohm Life batteries and they say lowest resistance is 0.16 LMAO So looks like I need new batteries.

All batteries will sag when you're drawing current from them. That amount varies between both battery types and rating, how full they are, power requested, at rest voltage, etc. IMHO your batteries are not even in question at this point.

1 hour ago, Navi said:

Is the low glow an absolute must?

IMHO, yes. Brief, low watts to see a dull and even glow a couple times till there's no machine or hand oils left on them. SS gets damaged from long high wattage burning bright like sun. Following my directions using your mod are better in this regard.

5 hours ago, Wayneo said:

I have always vaped a tank or two in straight watts profile, (no boost) to get a feeling for what/how to setup my TC parameters. Can you do that and tell me what's a great watts for you?

 

[Navi]

39 minutes ago, Navi said:

So thats an interesting point. Both sides are fully inserted and evenly (I always do a check to make sure my top of mesh is flat as it should be if its fully inserted and doesn't create a high spot for hot spots to develop

Forgot the interesting point. I have noticed that if I don't fully insert the mesh I get somewhat better results. Instead of fully inserting I only have the tabs inserted rather than putting the mesh all the way down. Essentially inserted enough that the coil has good contact with the clamps but none of the perforations (or the actual portion of the coil that is "mesh") make contact with the clamps.

After doing some quick search and reading the battery issue is pretty much not a thing unless you've all noticed anything in particular there with different brands. will try the watts profile

 

 

[Wayneo]

 

23 hours ago, Navi said:

I have noticed that if I don't fully insert the mesh I get somewhat better results. Instead of fully inserting I only have the tabs inserted rather than putting the mesh all the way down

What do you mean by 'somewhat better results'? 

Without even knowing your battery type in your initial post, especially with that vertical line, we being @dwcraig1 and I knew it was not an issue. That's so easy to spot we would have inquired. I don't know if Mooch ever tested those rewrapped cells for their Amp rating as they can be changed/swapped at any time. Even if they are only 15A batteries that is enough to support your shown watts as the load is shared between both batteries.

23 hours ago, Navi said:

After doing some quick search and reading the battery issue is pretty much not a thing

Good to hear you validated my comment. Do you do that for every comment I make.

23 hours ago, Wayneo said:

IMHO your batteries are not even in question at this point.

 

[Navi]

@Wayneo no haha I dont make sure everything is validated. Just had to do some quick research so I can understand how the system works. IT’s unfortunately how my brain works. Like to understand all the mechanisms and aspects of things so I can better diagnose stuff like this.

as far as the somewhat better results with the tabs only being inserted: that was the only time I got the 0.15 ohm rating of the coils from the vape (not even using escribe), and I did a pre-glow to make sure it was heating evenly. That set up worked perfectly and thought I had figured it out. Cause that time I could actually get vapor production at 360-390f where as right now the coil is at 0.17 ohms and I’m not getting a satisfying amount of vapor unless I’m at. 540f. Did the watts thing and I’m comfortable at the 45w-55w range. Above that and it starts to get a bit too warm and flavors get muddled.

[Navi]

@dwcraig1

On 4/24/2023 at 11:47 PM, dwcraig1 said:

Being SS316L it is an alloy which could vary wildly from the recommended TCR. Start by using just wattage to get an idea of how much wattage that it can handle going by taste the back it off some. I'm looking at your cold vs live ohms, give the TCR value a try for SS340 and manually adjust the SS430 value from there.

Recommended value for SS430 is 0.00138, use SteamEngine's CSV file or what came on your mod for starters.

This is how I would go about it.

Course I took off SS430 so I can’t test it at work right now. Will try it out at home. SUS316L shouldn’t be too much different than SS316L cause it’s just the Japanese grading of SS. I’m kinda appalled that Wotofo hasn’t responded to my 8 support requests on what the hell the TCR should be. Probably my last atomizer from them because it’s just a given someone’s going to want to know that info and they just don’t seem to care 😭

[Wayneo]

1 hour ago, Navi said:

somewhat better results with the tabs only being inserted: that was the only time I got the 0.15 ohm rating of the coils from the vape (not even using escribe), and I did a pre-glow to make sure it was heating evenly. That set up worked perfectly

So that appears to be the correct depth for the mesh, and a similar routine to what I suggested. I still stand by my full way. And don't lock the ohms/resistance.

1 hour ago, Navi said:

SUS316L shouldn’t be too much different than SS316L cause it’s just the Japanese grading of SS. I’m kinda appalled that Wotofo hasn’t responded to my 8 support requests on what the hell the TCR should be.

Wotofo probably has no clue. As @dwcraig said, all SS are alloys (a chemical composition) with ranges instead of hard and fast rules for what SS316 or 'L' is. The 'L' for example just denotes low carbon.

 

[Navi]

21 hours ago, Wayneo said:

So that appears to be the correct depth for the mesh, and a similar routine to what I suggested. I still stand by my full way. And don't lock the ohms/resistance.

Yeah gonna try a new build now and try the tab route again. I had 45-55w as my best for watts so any suggestions I guess then? I don't lock the ohms it was just an attempt to trouble shoot by myself and it didn't work of course.

[Wayneo]

No new suggestions from me. I'd like to see a couple puffs just like before, before you go changing your material profile a la dwcraig. 

[Navi]

Alright well lemme build and send some pics and screenshots before I wick it and all that jazz

[Wayneo]

I only need DM screenshots after wicking and a bunch of puffs.

[Navi]

Alright, well I remembered when building that I had swapped out the post screws (for when you wanna build wires on the deck) and that was when I got an accurate read. So I pulled out all the screws for the wires and checked em. Guess 2 of the 8 screws were just a tad shorter than the rest. Cause I just a coil to read at 0.15 when I first inserted. Did a pre-glow, wicked etc. Now its reading at 0.141 stable (never had a reading lower than 0.15 so I"m not mad at all). I also inserted the coil so a bit of the tab is showing as well. will include picture after this post since its on my phone.

Here's the puffs. Can record more after the juice soaks a bit more. 

 

edit:

how my coil is inserted 

Edited April 27, 2023 by Navi

[Wayneo]

Sorry @Navi I have been of no help. I don't have that RTA but how high that mesh sits doesn't look right to me. I imagine it was as shitty as before. Too many moving parts for me.

What I can say, is even if you do as suggested by @dwcraig1 I don't see anything changing for the quality of the puff. 
Look at your jagged red (temp) line. Your certainly reaching the temp, hella quickly and suffering the spiral of death on the watts (jagged green) line. While I'm here, not a single one of your puffs (in this entire thread) does it show your(purple lines) 'live ohms' line starting at the 'cold ohms' line. Which at least one should. 

If your main goal is to avoid the dreaded mesh dry hit, the 'Replay' option (using watts as the material type) should be a much easier option for you if you're willing to try it. Let me know and I can help with that.

[Navi]

22 minutes ago, Wayneo said:

I don't have that RTA but how high that mesh sits doesn't look right to me. I imagine it was as shitty as before

Yeah I've tried all the way down and like this. Found it as idea on another fourm where he called it out specifically on these Wotofo Mesh coils (although it was the original ones that were for the Profile 1 not the Profile 1.5 spec SUS316L coils I have. 

 

26 minutes ago, Wayneo said:

not a single one of your puffs (in this entire thread) does it show your(purple lines) 'live ohms' line starting at the 'cold ohms' line. Which at least one should.

It will if I don't just keep hitting the puff command. That first one does on this screenshot.

 

I'm not as much concerned on the "dread mesh dry hit" used to use the Profile PS with dual mesh and didn't like it when it happened but it didn't scar me for life either. 

 

Yeah its weird alright. Would figure the temp reading would start lower than it does. 2-3 secs in between puffs I understand won't come to room, but it doesn't drop much at all.

[Wayneo]

2 hours ago, Navi said:

It will if I don't just keep hitting the puff command. That first one does on this screenshot.

So were they all simulated puffs? The only full printscreen (your first) showed it was an exact 2 seconds so I know that was simulated.

2 hours ago, Navi said:

Yeah its weird alright. Would figure the temp reading would start lower than it does. 2-3 secs in between puffs I understand won't come to room, but it doesn't drop much at all.

Not weird at all. All this time wasted, except for seeing the live ohms touch. Now all those makes sense. When you puff, it pulls air over the mesh, juice back in to the mesh, all keeping/requiring more watts.

2 hours ago, Wayneo said:

If your main goal is to avoid the dreaded mesh dry hit, the 'Replay' option (using watts as the material type) should be a much easier option for you if you're willing to try it. Let me know and I can help with that.

And no comment on the above. Don't wanna try.

[Navi]

2 hours ago, Wayneo said:

So were they all simulated puffs? The only full printscreen (your first) showed it was an exact 2 seconds so I know that was simulated.

Yeah I didn’t actually hit the fire button on the mod and take a puff, just used the fire for 1 sec while it sat on the desk.

 

2 hours ago, Wayneo said:

And no comment on the above. Don't wanna try.

I mean I’m open to trying replay. But I’ve been trying to mainly just get any flavor out of using TC. I do like the concept of being able to not burn my cotton. But to get any amount of vapor I’m having to put temp at almost 530 and there’s no flavor somehow up there. Well I’ll do another fresh build with the tabs all the way inserted and see if I a noticeable difference. In the name of science 😭