TSM check

[balt]

First time poster and i am all self taught so bear with me. I'm using a wire coil embedded into a ceramic cup. Ive managed to make a accurate custom curve measuring res at different temps with an external probe every 100f, however currently running into issues showing live temp and passing the tsm check. From my understanding the device has to sense a rise to 200f in a certain amount of time for it to pass the tsm check however my material takes a little longer than the check so it kicks into wattage mode. I have manged to fake it by setting a fake res point near my cold res @200f  with all accurate data points after that but this is just a work around. Is there anyway to extend the tsm check a little longer? perhaps a toggle when in session mode? my material take about 5 seconds to heat up to 200.

 

Erstmaliges Poster und ich bin alles Autodidakt, also haben Sie Geduld mit mir. Ich verwende eine Drahtspule, die in einen Keramikbecher eingebettet ist. Ich habe es geschafft, mit einer externen Sonde eine genaue benutzerdefinierte Kurve zu erstellen, bei der die Auflösung bei verschiedenen Temperaturen gemessen wird. Derzeit treten jedoch Probleme auf, die die Live-Temperatur anzeigen und die TSM-Prüfung bestehen. Nach meinem Verständnis muss das Gerät in einer bestimmten Zeit einen Anstieg auf 200f erkennen, damit es die tsm-Prüfung besteht, aber mein Material dauert etwas länger als die Prüfung, sodass es in den Wattmodus wechselt. Ich habe es geschafft, es zu fälschen, indem ich einen falschen Auflösungspunkt in der Nähe meiner kalten Auflösung @ 200f mit allen genauen Datenpunkten danach gesetzt habe, aber das ist nur eine Problemumgehung. Gibt es trotzdem die Möglichkeit, den tsm-Check etwas länger zu verlängern? vielleicht ein Umschalter im Sitzungsmodus? Mein Material braucht etwa 5 Sekunden, um auf 200 aufzuheizen.

 

Thank you

 

Edited March 25, 2023 by balt

[Wayneo]

50 minutes ago, balt said:

Is there anyway to extend the tsm check a little longer? perhaps a toggle when in session mode? my material take about 5 seconds to heat up to 200.

My only thought is Yes!, try using Session Mode.

[8 Points 9 Seconds]

Il 26/03/2023 in 00:29 , balt ha scritto:

… currently running into issues showing live temp and passing the tsm check… my material takes a little longer than the check so it kicks into wattage mode.

There is a way to get to the desired temp earlier and pass the tsm check, use higher W.

I don’t know what is the power your heater can handle, so check the specs. 

If you can’t use more power, the only workaround is to “adjust” the Material.
 

Edited October 30 by 8 Points 9 Seconds

[RicketyPumpkin]

On 10/30/2024 at 1:33 PM, 8 Points 9 Seconds said:

There is a way to get to the desired temp earlier and pass the tsm check, use higher W.

I don’t know what is the power your heater can handle, so check the specs. 

If you can’t use more power, the only workaround is to “adjust” the Material.
 

I'm in the exact same situation as the OP. Using a multi material crucible style cup with inlaid heater ((3D heating), inlay is throughout the sidewalls & bottom of the crucible). The inlaid heating material is tungsten strip (I'm not sure it's a exact dimensions but that shouldn't matter for tricking the device). Then for the leads, Uses a tungsten high-temp slurry solder joining to nickel leads to the tungsten. 

I have seen this "workaround" Mentioned dozens of times across dozens of forums yet I cannot find a single person that actually says what this work around is? I desperately need to find out what this is I have a general idea since I've heard a summary of what it achieves I just am very new to DNA devices, literally just got my first one last week. An LVE Therion 2 DNA250c, Which I purchased specifically to fire these cups since before that I was using the comparably, wildly inaccurate and inconsistent Arctic Fox and even Red Panda on a dozen different devices. Those at least, stayed in TC mode but Let's just say they could be more than 100 degrees off target. So, it's pretty disappointing to say the least to spend almost $200 and see some of the most accurate temperature control in the world, yet not be able to use it on the atomizer I bought the device for simply because the element heats up 2 or so seconds slower than the FW allows.

For reference, the heater can take a mfr recommended maximum of 38 Watts but preferably would like to keep it at 37 since I don't like running things at their ceilings and has a manufacturer recommended TCR value of between 180 and 200. The 180 value was on the prototype model of this same atomizer and the production unit, I have both by the way, recommends a 200 TCR in the official documentation it came with. Since I've tried 38 watts, admittedly even 40 watts for a very short time, it still could not make temp quick enough but it's absolutely meant to be fired using TC they just were primarily designed to be used for Arctic Fox & Other single TCR linear value devices, not multipoint or curve TFR which the DNA uses. I've quickly outgrown. It gets old quick running a bunch of five to 10 year old mods that cost 20 to 50 dollars so they feel cheesy and are horribly overpriced and almost impossible to get these days since they've been discontinued for so long.

TLDR:

I've given the specs and values for the crucible I'm trying to get to stay in temperature control with my DNA 250C is there any possible way you can point me in the direction of finding this material tweak that allows me to stay in TC mode while firing atomizers that don't hit 200F within two seconds? Please and thank you very much in advance

[balt]

3 hours ago, RicketyPumpkin said:

I'm in the exact same situation as the OP. Using a multi material crucible style cup with inlaid heater ((3D heating), inlay is throughout the sidewalls & bottom of the crucible). The inlaid heating material is tungsten strip (I'm not sure it's a exact dimensions but that shouldn't matter for tricking the device). Then for the leads, Uses a tungsten high-temp slurry solder joining to nickel leads to the tungsten. 

I have seen this "workaround" Mentioned dozens of times across dozens of forums yet I cannot find a single person that actually says what this work around is? I desperately need to find out what this is I have a general idea since I've heard a summary of what it achieves I just am very new to DNA devices, literally just got my first one last week. An LVE Therion 2 DNA250c, Which I purchased specifically to fire these cups since before that I was using the comparably, wildly inaccurate and inconsistent Arctic Fox and even Red Panda on a dozen different devices. Those at least, stayed in TC mode but Let's just say they could be more than 100 degrees off target. So, it's pretty disappointing to say the least to spend almost $200 and see some of the most accurate temperature control in the world, yet not be able to use it on the atomizer I bought the device for simply because the element heats up 2 or so seconds slower than the FW allows.

For reference, the heater can take a mfr recommended maximum of 38 Watts but preferably would like to keep it at 37 since I don't like running things at their ceilings and has a manufacturer recommended TCR value of between 180 and 200. The 180 value was on the prototype model of this same atomizer and the production unit, I have both by the way, recommends a 200 TCR in the official documentation it came with. Since I've tried 38 watts, admittedly even 40 watts for a very short time, it still could not make temp quick enough but it's absolutely meant to be fired using TC they just were primarily designed to be used for Arctic Fox & Other single TCR linear value devices, not multipoint or curve TFR which the DNA uses. I've quickly outgrown. It gets old quick running a bunch of five to 10 year old mods that cost 20 to 50 dollars so they feel cheesy and are horribly overpriced and almost impossible to get these days since they've been discontinued for so long.

TLDR:

I've given the specs and values for the crucible I'm trying to get to stay in temperature control with my DNA 250C is there any possible way you can point me in the direction of finding this material tweak that allows me to stay in TC mode while firing atomizers that don't hit 200F within two seconds? Please and thank you very much in advance

I'm guessing your using a v5?

[RicketyPumpkin]

Correct, the XL cups in the newer base. I'm also having the exact same issues with my lightning quest. it's kiling me having to take out my 5 year old wismec or espion when I just bought a Therion 2. I know people have massive success using 250c chips with these but They also probably know the work around that seems to be kept so hidden.

[balt]

19 minutes ago, RicketyPumpkin said:

Correct, the XL cups in the newer base. I'm also having the exact same issues with my lightning quest. it's kiling me having to take out my 5 year old wismec or espion when I just bought a Therion 2. I know people have massive success using 250c chips with these but They also probably know the work around that seems to be kept so hidden.

So I've spent A-LOTTT of time on this i was actually the person who discovered the work around with some help from seedmass.

To basically do it right for acurate tc control you need a thermalcouple probe. Put the prjbe in the cup and use wattage mode to measure the resistance of your cup every 100 degrees (100, 200, 300, etc.) All the way up to 500. Then you need to make a custom material profile and plot those resistance points on the material graph. You also need to make a fake resistance point somewhere close to 200f that is close to your cold resistance to fool the tsm check. After that all other accurate points will take over.

That's the first and best option. You can also make a tcr profile and plot a fake resistance point (a resistance that is close to your cold resistance) somewhere around 200f. But you will need to still do the cotton test and try a couple different TCRs cause the tcr will change from your artic fox devices. If you go on the divine tribe discord server there are tcr profiles in the dna section with this workaround. But like I said u have to try a couple with the cotton test cause it'll be a different tcr then u are used to.

The workaround is just making a fake resistance point close to 200 that is close to your cold resistance so the tsm check thinks that it has reached 200 degrees.

[balt]

Like I said I've spent alot of time on this and the tcr workaround isn't really an accurate way to measure the temp. It'll just be somewhat close. The first way is the best way to be 100% sure the temp is what it says on the screen.

[RicketyPumpkin]

3 minutes ago, balt said:

So I've spent A-LOTTT of time on this i was actually the person who discovered the work around with some help from seedmass.

To basically do it right for acurate tc control you need a thermalcouple probe. Put the prjbe in the cup and use wattage mode to measure the resistance of your cup every 100 degrees (100, 200, 300, etc.) All the way up to 500. Then you need to make a custom material profile and plot those resistance points on the material graph. You also need to make a fake resistance point somewhere close to 200f that is close to your cold resistance to fool the tsm check. After that all other accurate points will take over.

That's the first and best option. You can also make a tcr profile and plot a fake resistance point (a resistance that is close to your cold resistance) somewhere around 200f. But you will need to still do the cotton test and try a couple different TCRs cause the tcr will change from your artic fox devices. If you go on the divine tribe discord server there are tcr profiles in the dna section with this workaround. But like I said u have to try a couple with the cotton test cause it'll be a different tcr then u are used to.

The workaround is just making a fake resistance point close to 200 that is close to your cold resistance so the tsm check thinks that it has reached 200 degrees.

Thank you so much for this! 3 days of forum hopping and everyone is acting like it's this huge secret and its always referred to as the "material mod" but never delve into what the heck they are modding in the custom material. I did figure out it was because the v5 cannot get to 200f in two seconds, therefore failing TSM check which kicks us back to wattage. I also tried to create a fake mat profile to trick it but no matter what I do, that first point always has to stay at -100? i can create and move+delete any other points but that -100 degree starting point , I can't change its temp. I know I. probably sound like a fool here but could you please walk me through which point (obv needs to be at 200f right?) and the extreme difference in how TCR values are used vs the single value, linear curve Arctic Fox uses. I have those so dialed, sure the temp on screen might be +- 50f using a crude laser gun infrared thermometer but it doesnt matter since the vaporization is perfect.

I know about the seedmass limited v5 and Hyperion? that he used like 5 platinum probes to create a 3D curve for the dna, I'm not looking to get my hands that dirty, however if i need to get a thermocouple probe and display unit, they aren't much for a singular probe with controller on Amazon. I'd want to see the thing even fire in tc at all before i dump more money on top of the cost of this therion 2 that is literally just a very fancy VW device for me right now. Could you give an example of how to plot the point that'll keep me in TC? I'd be more than happy to invest in getting accuracy as good as possible after I can at least use the device. Thanks for the quick replies man.

[RicketyPumpkin]

23 minutes ago, balt said:

Like I said I've spent alot of time on this and the tcr workaround isn't really an accurate way to measure the temp. It'll just be somewhat close. The first way is the best way to be 100% sure the temp is what it says on the screen.

I hear you, I don't need another inaccurate device. I just want to have proof of concept before putting more money in this device 

[balt]

So just went on the divine tribe server and it looks like they aren't even using this workaround anymore it used to look like this for the tcr profiles. You would creat a tcr profiles bottom right corner for temp coefficient. 180tcr would be 0.00180, 200tcr would be 0.00200. And them you just add a point around 200degrees that is close to your room temo coefficient. But it looks like they aren't even doing that anymore. I'll post the new info they give out

[RicketyPumpkin]

divine tribe website has a random link to vaporninja and that literally just Literally tell you how to input a custom material in escribe.

I'm just trying to understand the relationship between the 200 degree point versus where the TCR needs to be at that 200 degree point in relation to an overall TCR value of 200. Or does it not matter? Can I simply make it any acceptable value that's an upward curve from the first point? Obviously without going over there requested tcr of 200?

[balt]

This is what they are telling people to do now. I have been out the scene for a little while now I just use my custom profiles but every cup is different.

[balt]

5 minutes ago, RicketyPumpkin said:

divine tribe website has a random link to vaporninja and that literally just Literally tell you how to input a custom material in escribe.

I'm just trying to understand the relationship between the 200 degree point versus where the TCR needs to be at that 200 degree point in relation to an overall TCR value of 200. Or does it not matter? Can I simply make it any acceptable value that's an upward curve from the first point? Obviously without going over there requested tcr of 200?

The 200 degree point needs to be close to your room temp coefficient number. So the mod thinks it's at 200 degrees when it's only actually around 100 or so. That's why you had to do the cotton test and try with a couple different TCRs. But it looks like now they are just telling people to crank up the wattage

[RicketyPumpkin]

3 minutes ago, balt said:

The 200 degree point needs to be close to your room temp coefficient number. So the mod thinks it's at 200 degrees when it's only actually around 100 or so. That's why you had to do the cotton test and try with a couple different TCRs. But it looks like now they are just telling people to crank up the wattage

So which do you agree with? Now I completely understand the relationship between TCR and tricking the device, the answer was it was relationship with room temperature that's the part I was not understanding and nobody could tell me what that answer was until you did. 

I appreciate so much that you took the time to get those screenshots for me, I'm not sure what's going on with my connection to divine tribe but if I click any of their hyperlinks, I get a 404 error and it's not finding anything so I literally couldn't get these or join their discord through the link no matter what.

I'm really uncomfortable with cranking my wattage up to 55 watts that seems a Little excessive and definitely is going to take that lifespan way down on that cup. Currently the XL I'm running Is around 4 months old and still looks brand new on the inside after a burn off and cold resistance is still a 0.44 which is the exact same as when I first plugged it in. I suspect that this 55 watt recommendation or ceiling is going to result in dramatic resistance increasing and a lot of cracking of the cups. I've had a cup crack at 0.82 During a burn off set only at 40w and in the first 60 sec of autofire.

So I'll definitely order a probe, like a proper one but without spending another 100 bucks i'd rather just stick with Arctic Fox at that point, but I found some decently rated temperature probes with display readouts for not too much on Amazon so I make that happen do you agree that the best course of action would be the material modification, then cotton bud test every say 2-3w? Also if I get a burnt Q tip before the device keeps TC, I would obviously just stop there and go back to using my cheap Arctic Fox mods that I have several of until a better way is put out by evolv. I suspect they're holding off on that because of the cricket and it's claim of two seconds until vapor production and five seconds before you can put it back in your pocket. They wouldn't want any plain old 250C to be able to do the same exact thing that the $300 cricket does so I would just stick to wattage mode I guess or go back to what I was using before I spent $170 on this paperweight! nah I'm Still extremely impressed by this mod but yeah I already have everything else I already have the theme that unlocks every single feature that they programmed into the board and I've done everything else stated in those screenshots just from my prior knowledge of how crucible style atomizer's work. At least I know I could always sell this mod, DNA chipped devices hold value better than any other brand, especially nowadays the lost vape DNA's, So I could always recoup at least a bit of my money in worst case.

[Wayneo]

For starters @balt did you ever try 'session mode'. You never came back and updated this post?

@RicketyPumpkin Your vendor should have given you instructions on how to set this up based on their testing, and looking at those photos and your comments I don't think it will work for you.

Any material file you used with Arctic Fox will work on your Therion. Hell, it started as a clone of escribe. DNAs have always had the ability to use TFRs and TCRs and AF copied that, so whatever you already have can be uploaded on your Therion.

I'd really suggest you ask that dude with a thermocouple and same version crucible to share the material file with you.
Could you post a link to their instructions?

[balt]

11 hours ago, RicketyPumpkin said:

So which do you agree with?

I always just mapped out my own cups using tfr and a thermocouple. It was like 12 bucks on Amazon and only took about 10 mins per cup. I never liked the TCR " work around trick" cause it was never accurate and temps would climb and be all over the place. 

I definitely don't think it's a paperweight. Those are the manufacturer instructions in the screenshot I posted And many people are having sucess with higher wattage. The device will stop adding wattage when it sees that it is at desired temp and u will only only "autofire" for about 30 seconds or so. Just make sure the resistance doesn't climb above .8. That's odd about your cup popping at .81 I always wattage cleaned to .9 and have only had one cup blow because I didn't let it cool down enough before my next wattage pulse

20 minutes ago, Wayneo said:

For starters @balt did you ever try 'session mode'.

I'd really suggest you ask that dude with a thermocouple and same version crucible to share the material file with you.
Could you post a link to their instructions?

Yes we tried that and it still wouldn't pass the tsm check because the cup takes longer than 2 seconds to heat up.

Every crucible cup is different with different cold resistance (.43-.5) and different TCR values (160-200) it's not a really one size fits all material profike kind of thing.

TFR instructions are to plug your device into the pc and view live data. Probe your cup with a thermocouple and wattage fire your device. Fire it until the thermocouple says it has reached 200 degrees and immietely stop. Read the resistance on the live data where the cup reached 200 degrees and write it down. Repeat step again but this time at 300 degrees. Repeat again every 100 degrees until 500.

Wirte down these resistance points in a custom material profile and then add a "fake" resistance point around 190 degrees that is close to your cold resistance to fool the tsm check.

[8 Points 9 Seconds]

Il 03/11/2024 in 15:33 , balt ha scritto:

Yes we tried that and it still wouldn't pass the tsm check because the cup takes longer than 2 seconds to heat up.

The power delivered heats up the embedded coil and the mass around it.
TSD check is like having a resistance threshold to reach within the first seconds.

To solve this the easier and most obvious solution is to deliver more Power. 
If you have a probe test the cup with increasing W (each time from cold) and note the live resistance after 2s. That is the threshold for that W. Higher W, higher threshold achievable. 
 

 

Edited November 7 by 8 Points 9 Seconds

[8 Points 9 Seconds]

The “usual workaround” is a fake resistance threshold on the tfr curve. 

It depends on the W setting and the mass of the heater since the 2 second time is a fixed condition. 

[RicketyPumpkin]

3 minutes ago, 8 Points 9 Seconds said:

The power delivered heats up the embedded coil and the mass around it.
TSD check is like having a resistance threshold to reach within the first seconds.

To solve this the easier and most obvious solution is to deliver more Power. Higher temp on screen, higher tcr are ways to deliver more power and fool the TSD check. 
If you have a probe test the cup with increasing W (each time from cold) and note the live resistance after 2s. That is the threshold for that W. Higher W, higher threshold achievable. 
 

 

I'm assuming you haven't read the entire thread because that's a literally verbatim what we've been talking about. Obviously every coil or coilless cup with embedded tungsten ribbon has it's limitations on the voltage+current delivered & how quickly You can deliver that current. In this specific case, we are referring to alumina ceramic cups with Embedded tungsten ribbon throughout the walls and floor of the cup for a "coilless" cup, Meaning it retains its flavor like you wouldn't imagine when compared to something that touches any sort of metallic heating element which just tastes absolutely disgusting. Because of the ceramic nature, these will absolutely crack sometimes even violently if you deliver over the suggested maximum current and add a faster pace EG higher TCR.

@baltI've got myself sorted out, there is no need for this thread to continue on my part. I've figured out a simple enough, acceptable solution that gives me the results that I am looking for and I'm not having to Resort to using that ridiculous 55 watts limit they are having people use. I cannot imagine what a true 55 watts would do to one of these cups considering I can do a burn off end make the V five look Literally brand new again using only 38 watts and less than 2, 60 second sessions. I'm definitely getting a set of PID thermocouple probes but until then I've got a admittedly pretty nifty work around. I don't know if the temperature is accurate nor do I really care, the only part that matters to me is not destroying my hardware and achieving the hit density that I am used to which I can easily do now. Once I've thoroughly tested it, since it's an (As far as I know) completely original, new approach to this ridiculously unnecessary problem, I may release a how to thread likely on reddit as this forum is dead.

@helpdesk I am stuck somehow logged in only on my laptop and for some reason it's completely denying any login from my phone so it's absolutely ridiculous to have to submit multiple tickets to the support center because their password reset system doesn't work. I've tried on three separate days over the last week and still have yet to receive a single email with the code to reset my password and I've also sent for emails to the support team here and have yet to get a single response from them

@Wayneo As far as what you were saying, about all of my previous Arctic Fox coil info etc. being useful and I can import it to Escribe, unfortunately isn't possible. The manufacturers of the products we are referring to have us in every directional video and booklet as well as online reference material all point to setting up these products using one singular TCR value, a wattage level and a desired temperature peak. From there the software does all the lifting but it does not populate into a TFR value set In any way shape or form. They call it single point linear TCR which I'm aware you can replicate to an extent using this software the issue being that you'll be kicked into wattage mode no matter what your settings are. I've experimented with quadrupling the TCR value and adding an additional 17 watts on top of the manufacturers updated maximum wattage they say it can take and I still can't meet the TC requirement check implemented using that strategy. There is next to no data you can carry over from Arctic Fox Software to this software unless you were opting to ignore manufacturers directions and go ahead and make your own custom TFR for your material in Arctic Fox, that then would be in portable to use here but I guarantee you still would fail the ambient to 200 Fahrenheit in under two seconds check. The TCR from Arctic Fox used here in general on all 4 of my atomizers from this company, I've had to at least triple to even get it to produce a satisfying cloud. Again, I think it's just wrong product for the wrong usage. Definitely I've got nothing bad to say about my device. I am 100% keeping it and there are so many advantages aside from that one big disadvantage.. I've got close to 15 different mods running either Arctic Fox or Red Panda from single 18650 2 dual 21 700 batteries yet not a single one of those mods even the 2x 21700 device can last longer than my simple dual 18650 Therion 2. I'm completely speechless with the battery performance on these things it's so foreign to me to not have to swap batteries A minimum of twice in a day but I can not only not swap batteries, but end the day somewhere with 20 to 30% battery left. I guess that's that 97% efficiency rate they're talking about. Also the personalization is just on another level along with the quality of the device although that is more of a lost vape one up then it is evolv's.

 

Let's just say I'm extremely glad I did not pick up the Paranormal instead of any of the cheaper options. Had I spent $300 on a Paranormal, I would have returned or flipped it, there is no doubt about it. However, a bit less than half that for the Therion 2, I can definitely live with. 

My issue is solved for now, plus can't even login anymore, so with that I bid you all a farewell and peace out.