SS316L Help

[jj6404]

Well I have not considered it and I have to say that I don't really plan on considering it unless the price you stated is a typo LOL. $150 per foot?! I haven't even given my wife anything in platinum yet!

[Gm111]

Jaquith said:

The differences in coiling are going to be wire surface area, power, temperature and any 'coloring' from the wire itself ( metallic taste ). That's assuming a verbatim Atty, setup and juice. My insanity today is looking at pure Platinum ($150 / foot 0.5 mm). Even Steam Engine doesn't have data. I know the ML Class has a profile which is why I'm thinking about it. Platinum doesn't oxidize, its melting temperature is simular to Titanium, noble metal .. and wow expensive. I mentioned it once in this post, but I'm curious if you've considered it?

You'd need a coil to last you a year, imagine the price of a staggered fused clapton!! How about gold or silver?

[Jaquith]

No doubt the cost of Platinum or Gold makes it for the uber Hobbyist; their cost is very close, Platinum is about 20% less but it's more rare. The couple studies that I've briefly read suggests Platinum shows the least toxicity with Gold coming very close, but Silver showed levels of toxicity so that metal is probably one that I'd skip certainly for long-term. Here's one thought, while I'm a decent 'coiler' lol I'm not perfect and I've certainly screwed up coils that I tossed out and when it's say Kanthal or as it should (cost) Stainless Steel it's no big deal .. lessons learned and you move on. But screw up a Platinum or Gold coil and you're going to be devastated. :-( Although, sporting around a Gold coil would be cool! Here's one brief I read over (Au, Pt, Ag), you can download the abstract http://www.researchgate.net/publication/50591381_Comparison_of_the_Toxicity_of_Silver_Gold_and_Platinum_Nanoparticles_in_Developing_Zebrafish_Embryos Platinum (Amazon hurry only 9 left lol) http://www.amazon.com/Platinum-Gauge-99-9-Round-Inches/dp/B008GWOAMI Platinum (cheaper again lol; we could group buy 150' for only $9,000) http://www.surepure.com/Platinum-Wire-Rod-0.020-in.-0.5-mm-24-gauge-Platinum-Wire-Rod-99.95-Percent/a/9,145,28,1,824#purity

[Jentz9517]

Hey David! Did you receive my note in your inbox ? It's not showing receipt? No rush..

[Jaquith]

Jentz9517 said:

Hey David! Did you receive my note in your inbox ? It's not showing receipt? No rush..

I'm still on my phone (away from my PC with its data files), soon, sorry for the delay.

[Gm111]

Jaquith said:

No doubt the cost of Platinum or Gold makes it for the uber Hobbyist; their cost is very close, Platinum is about 20% less but it's more rare. The couple studies that I've briefly read suggests Platinum shows the least toxicity with Gold coming very close, but Silver showed levels of toxicity so that metal is probably one that I'd skip certainly for long-term. Here's one thought, while I'm a decent 'coiler' lol I'm not perfect and I've certainly screwed up coils that I tossed out and when it's say Kanthal or as it should (cost) Stainless Steel it's no big deal .. lessons learned and you move on. But screw up a Platinum or Gold coil and you're going to be devastated. :-( Although, sporting around a Gold coil would be cool! Here's one brief I read over (Au, Pt, Ag), you can download the abstract http://www.researchgate.net/publication/50591381_Comparison_of_the_Toxicity_of_Silver_Gold_and_Platinum_Nanoparticles_in_Developing_Zebrafish_Embryos Platinum (Amazon hurry only 9 left lol) http://www.amazon.com/Platinum-Gauge-99-9-Round-Inches/dp/B008GWOAMI Platinum (cheaper again lol; we could group buy 150' for only $9,000) http://www.surepure.com/Platinum-Wire-Rod-0.020-in.-0.5-mm-24-gauge-Platinum-Wire-Rod-99.95-Percent/a/9,145,28,1,824#purity

I see what your saying but TC is meant too stop the coil heating up until it gets to the level of toxicity, and surely ni200/ titanium is more toxic than silver/sterling silver.. 

[Jaquith]

Gm111 said:

I see what your saying but TC is meant too stop the coil heating up until it gets to the level of toxicity, and surely ni200/ titanium is more toxic than silver/sterling silver.. 

That study was about heavy metals, (Au, Pt, Ag), nanoparticles absorption and abnormalities / levels observed and their effects on sensitive embryos. Noble metals are metals that are resistant to corrosion and oxidation in the atmosphere. Gold (Au) and Platinum (Pt) are examples of Noble metals, Silver (Ag) and Titanium (Ti) can oxidize, Silver easily. However, Titanium is a Biocompatible metal, meaning it does not react on a cellular level ie is safe. Let me put it this way, Titanium, non alloy Grades 1-5, is by far the safest 'affordable' metal that can be used in vaping and in particular works well in TC. Yep, you can indeed IF the metal gets too hot, form Ti02 Titanium Dioxide once the metal starts glowing a 'yellowish' color. Now if you never pulse Titainium to clean and use in TC then you have nothing to be concerned about, Ti02 will not form, not even close in the 600F, Ti02 forms when it reacts with O2 >2,100 F!

I'm a Chemist by education and all of this information is easily Google'd and verifiable.

What happened, the FEAR of Ti02, was Stealth Vape had some Voodoo science web page with shards of Titaium going up in flames (ever see what happens to steel wool and a 9V battery?) and NOT knowing the difference between commercially produced nanoparticles and those that form on 'heated wire exposed to air.' Now Stealth Vapes is selling Titainum Grade 1 wire .. to which they said the 'never would sell' .. yeah right!

LOL this same argument goes on with Stainless Steel vs Titanium cookware .. hint you're at risk with SS cookware .. so why is it used .. simple money, the cost of Titanium cookware is 10X or more than SS. Money vs Health.

From what I'm reading, Platinum is safer, it's a Noble metal and will not oxidize, works in TC .. BUT .. $70 / coil vs <$0.50 / coil using Titanium. At any giving point I'm using a dozen Atty's and many with 2 coils so say (18 coils * $70/coil) = $1,260 and lets hope I don't screw-up a coil or two or three! 

[Jalcide]

David, thanks a ton for your work on your v3.25 SS profile. It's the only profile of many I've acquired that delivers a smooth vape in my build.



(And why the heck aren't these other profiles from Steam, Lost Vape, etc. working well? Is it a raw data issue, a DNA 200 issue? Maybe my SS wire has an unconventional mix?)

[Jaquith]

I've wondered the same, the weirdest was Sweet Spot Vapors 'Titanium,' it's actually an alloy and not Grade 1-5, but their published CSV files for their 0.4 and 0.5 mm will light my cotton on fire and partially glow the wire at 450F. So sure it's possible something is off from Evolv. However, in contrast the Titanium Grade 1, for me, was about 40-50 F too cool. So I fixed those as well. BTW .. I made a V 3.125 which is inbetween.

[Jalcide]

Thanks, David. Excellent. Please do post the 3.125, I'd like to give it a try.

I've been tweaking the values on my own, too, but it's a game of wack-a-mole. Amazing how small the values need to be to affect huge differences in the vape.

It's great that we have the ability to do this ourselves in the DNA 200, it seems no mod maker, with pre-build values, or simple, single TCR values has nailed it yet.

[Jalcide]

Another thing I can't explain: A tank at 1/4 full, but still well about the coil intake ports, will be a weak vape on SS. I'll top it off with e-liquid and that small a temperature change will suddenly make the vape strong again. But the live ohms on the analyzer doesn't seem to change.

Very, very touchy, SS is. But when it's working, it's nice.

[Jaquith]

Jalcide said:

Thanks, David. Excellent. Please do post the 3.125, I'd like to give it a try.

I've been tweaking the values on my own, too, but it's a game of wack-a-mole. Amazing how small the values need to be to affect huge differences in the vape.

It's great that we have the ability to do this ourselves in the DNA 200, it seems no mod maker, with pre-build values, or simple, single TCR values has nailed it yet.

Part of the 'problem' especially with SS wire and it's low TCR is it becomes erratic and I'm thinking of experimenting with adding 3-4 values in the 480-550 F range which is where I typically vape. Yeah, I strongly recommend people play with the values, particularly in the temperature ranges they vape in!

Also, one 'tip' I'd recommend that you try is to turn-off Preheat using SS, other wire no, but SS .. I'd certainly try it; (1,1,0):
 
Here's SS V3.125 - http://www.filedropper.com/dna200-ud-ss316ldjaquithv3125

Let me know!

[Jaquith]

Jalcide said:

Another thing I can't explain: A tank at 1/4 full, but still well about the coil intake ports, will be a weak vape on SS. I'll top it off with e-liquid and that small a temperature change will suddenly make the vape strong again. But the live ohms on the analyzer doesn't seem to change.

Very, very touchy, SS is. But when it's working, it's nice.

Hmm .. that's generally TC kicking in from a dry(er) wick. Trick to test is to completely plug off the airflow (I use my fingers) and while drawing (sucking) let go of the airflow holes. 

As I mentioned as well .. compound that problem with Preheat!

[Jaquith]

One other 'tip' is to have the cotton in the coil rather tight and by that I mean it barely goes through the coil, then shift right and left to loosen. This stabilizes the TC and eliminates spitting. Next cut the cotton in Tanks shorter as in barely long enough, next I comb out the ends using something pointy eg tweezers with pointy ends or a small thin paperclip, and retrim the ends. Another problem is long leads, the leads are often hotter than the coils themselves in TC, so just keep that in mind. Often I'll do 90 degree bends of both lead wires, spaced coils (not touching), and attempt to avoid cotton from touching or resting on the leads.

[Jalcide]

Thanks, you're really on to something with disabling preheat punch. 3.125 didn't seem to win, yet, but more testing is required.

I'm slowly coming to the conclusion locking ohms may be required with this particular atomizer. The Atomizer Analyzer suggests it's stable, but I can't seem to keep it stable in actual use.

[Powerman]

So ya, I had a SX Mini, and the pulse modulation didn't seem to do good with SS. Now I have 2 200s and I use Crown SS coils. Yes I know the issues... Anyway, I made a couple curves. For soft and hard. New and old coils. I doubled the points in my curve, but memory is very limited. I had to delete a couple... It seemed to help. Punch doesn't seem to make a difference. One is soft, one hard. But I have not turned it off.

[Jaquith]

What Atty do you have?

[Jalcide]

At the moment, your v4 with preheat disabled is delivering the best vape. How long that lasts, has yet to be seen.

This is another reason I wish we had more than 8 profiles. I'd like to dedicate more to just SS variations.

[Jalcide]

Jaquith said:

What Atty do you have?

The one I'm testing at the moment is the Silo Beast (with the shorty tank section). Beautiful tank.

The coil is an atlantis-compatible Saucecode RBA with custom-made coil. SS 316L, 28 Guage, 7 wrap on a 2mm bit. Around 0.62 ohms.

[Jalcide]

Jaquith said:

One other 'tip' is to have the cotton in the coil rather tight and by that I mean it barely goes through the coil, then shift right and left to loosen. This stabilizes the TC and eliminates spitting. Next cut the cotton in Tanks shorter as in barely long enough, next I comb out the ends using something pointy eg tweezers with pointy ends or a small thin paperclip, and retrim the ends. Another problem is long leads, the leads are often hotter than the coils themselves in TC, so just keep that in mind. Often I'll do 90 degree bends of both lead wires, spaced coils (not touching), and attempt to avoid cotton from touching or resting on the leads.

Literally everything you just said is EXACTLY what I do, too. Haha. Everything; the tightness, combing the ends, re-triming after the comb, shorter cotton leads, spacing, 90 degree bend to prevent hot legs.

[jj6404]

Powerman said:

So ya, I had a SX Mini, and the pulse modulation didn't seem to do good with SS. Now I have 2 200s and I use Crown SS coils. Yes I know the issues... Anyway, I made a couple curves. For soft and hard. New and old coils. I doubled the points in my curve, but memory is very limited. I had to delete a couple... It seemed to help. Punch doesn't seem to make a difference. One is soft, one hard. But I have not turned it off.

How well are your Crown CSVs working for you? I couldn't get one that worked for me on my DNA200 but surprisingly on my new Evic VTC Mini, the stock SS profile they program in works beautifully...sometimes. First time I screwed it on, worked great. Second time I screwed my Crown on, cut prematurely and had weak, thin vapes. Third time, works great. Idk.

As for David's SS files, I think I've settled on the V4 and V3 for my attys. I still have preheat on but have the punch at 3, time at 0.75, and wattage at 20 watts above my vaping wattage (I vape around 55-65 watts and have preheat wattage at 80).

[flem]

Jaquith said:

What Atty do you have?

I am running a 0,285ohm spaced coil in my Goblin mini.
I have tried the version 4 and 3,125 and the version 3 of yours and i have settled with the version 3. I get great flavor, but some sizzling on the coil also after I stop vaping?

I have the temp set at 235C and 35W and still some fluctating when i test in device monitor.
I will try the cotton suggestion of yours when the tank is emty I may have to little cotton in there.
Is it better to run a higher ohm with the SS?

thank you

[Jalcide]

At least the EScribe Device Monitor is very accurate as to the vape. When it's a good vape, you can see it on the graph, and vice versa.

Using this as a guide, I lowered the Wattage so that it was close the target I knew I needed to be at. This would deliver the desired, smooth vape after about 2 seconds. I then used the preheat punch to dial in a fast, but still smooth ramp up.

Everything is really great, for now.

In my case, for .62 ohm 316L 7 wrap, 28 gauge on 2mm bit, this ended up being 20 watts, 410F with a preheat of 30W, 1 second long, 9.8 punch and with your v4 SS curve.

There is wisdom in how Evolv set this up, you just have to work with the physics of the coil and not fight it. You can't just set a high wattage and hope for a one-size-fits all profile (well, the wattage is easy to change on the device, as needed, I guess).

This is why we really need more profiles. I suspect this will only work for this build and repeats of it.

I'll report back on how this profile scales to other SS builds.

[Powerman]

jj6404 said:

[QUOTE=Powerman]So ya, I had a SX Mini, and the pulse modulation didn't seem to do good with SS. Now I have 2 200s and I use Crown SS coils. Yes I know the issues... Anyway, I made a couple curves. For soft and hard. New and old coils. I doubled the points in my curve, but memory is very limited. I had to delete a couple... It seemed to help. Punch doesn't seem to make a difference. One is soft, one hard. But I have not turned it off.

How well are your Crown CSVs working for you? I couldn't get one that worked for me on my DNA200 but surprisingly on my new Evic VTC Mini, the stock SS profile they program in works beautifully...sometimes. First time I screwed it on, worked great. Second time I screwed my Crown on, cut prematurely and had weak, thin vapes. Third time, works great. Idk.

As for David's SS files, I think I've settled on the V4 and V3 for my attys. I still have preheat on but have the punch at 3, time at 0.75, and wattage at 20 watts above my vaping wattage (I vape around 55-65 watts and have preheat wattage at 80).[/QUOTE] I updated my crown thread. I don't want to derail this one with previous built crown talk. But to answer your question, I use 304 TCR from steam engine and add points in the middle of each of their points. Most folks use 105 if they can input a TCR. That's what I used on the SX Mini. The Crown coils can be a little temperamental due to the nickel legs.

[Jaquith]

flem said:

[QUOTE=Jaquith]What Atty do you have?

I am running a 0,285ohm spaced coil in my Goblin mini.
I have tried the version 4 and 3,125 and the version 3 of yours and i have settled with the version 3. I get great flavor, but some sizzling on the coil also after I stop vaping?

I have the temp set at 235C and 35W and still some fluctating when i test in device monitor.
I will try the cotton suggestion of yours when the tank is emty I may have to little cotton in there.
Is it better to run a higher ohm with the SS?

thank you[/QUOTE]
Ideally the issue to overcome stability with SS or for that matter most TC wires is the Gauge. Big Man (power) vs Little Man (wire) as the Little Man becomes larger (Lower Gauge) it won't move around as much being pushed by the Big Man. Bad analogy I know, but it's the reason I prefer 24 Gauge and Mixed Wire coiling. Stability.

I do, lets call them 'odd' tests especially once I notice something. Example, same with SS, I wads comparing and calibrating Sweet Spot 'TiFe' wire, their wire is an alloy not pure Grade 1 Titanium and I was getting a burnt taste and I couldn't figure it out .. I thought the legs maybe .. I made a coil in the Veritas RDA and I turned the lights off and looked http://i.imgur.com/c4skTVD.jpg the coil itself the TC was perfect.
 
Now I read a Saucecode RBA .. wow I have one of those it drove me CrAzY and I both hate it and my Triton V1 because of it.

I do not purchase any wire smaller than 26 gauge (see above), even my Ni200 is 26 gauge Tempered.

What's crossing my mind to try is Twisted SS316L and Kanthal on higher gauge to stabilize the wire. 

My 26 gauge SS316L works okay, my 24 gauge much better. Another issue with SS3XXX is much of it is cold pressed and my eyeballs popped-out the first time I pulsed SS it not only has hotspots on the coil but embedded in layers in the wire itself. The best SS316L build I have is a 7.5 warp 3 mm with 90-deg legs that I pulsed to remove the hotspots and as I've mentioned above for technique. 

I read somewhere about the coils 'sizzling' yeah most will until the temp goes down, but some of that is with the wicking tighter vs looser. Different metals and more obvious is higher gauges cool faster. Most of my Ti builds stop almost instantly.