SS316L Help

[Jaquith]

My Vapor Shark is a 9/19/2015 imprinted device, I waited because of the finish issues to be sorted out. Wow that's unfortunate, but Vapor Shark is a very good company; contact them for an RMA. It might be worth a check and device reboot and if necessary reinstall the firmware. I've tried both 480° F and 250° C on two different Atty's a single and dual and they vaped identical.

[r4nd0m]

Well mine is a 9/30/2015 so I assume even newer ... Well I'll go ahead and do some more testing but I can replicate with my vortice easily - dual could build 7 wraps totalling at 0.27ohm ... Firing it at 50watts @410F it goes into TC, do I set it to 210C it just fires in wattage mode ...

[jj6404]

Jaquith said:

My Vapor Shark is a 9/19/2015 imprinted device, I waited because of the finish issues to be sorted out. Wow that's unfortunate, but Vapor Shark is a very good company; contact them for an RMA. It might be worth a check and device reboot and if necessary reinstall the firmware. I've tried both 480° F and 250° C on two different Atty's a single and dual and they vaped identical.

Jaquith, what do you think of 430 SS? It's resistivity seems to be much higher than 316 and 304. Might this translate to a more reliable and accurate temp control?

[Jaquith]

jj6404 said:

Jaquith, what do you think of 430 SS? It's resistivity seems to be much higher than 316 and 304. Might this translate to a more reliable and accurate temp control?

SS430 should be 'more accurate' looking at the differences between 400F~800F, but I haven't a clue about its oxidation, leaching, etc characteristics. SS430 Fe, <0.12% C, 16-18% Cr, <0.75% Ni, <1.0% Mn, <1.0% Si, <0.040% P, <0.030% S

 

Being straight up, I want to avoid Cr, Ni, Al, etc long-term. However, it's certainly a wire to play with in TC. I'm just having a hard time rationalizing Platinum wire because of its price. SS alloys in contrast appeal is it's cheap. Keep in mind, a Titanium coil will outlast the Atty itself... So price!?

[jj6404]

Jaquith said:

[QUOTE=jj6404]Jaquith, what do you think of 430 SS? It's resistivity seems to be much higher than 316 and 304. Might this translate to a more reliable and accurate temp control?

SS430 should be 'more accurate' looking at the differences between 400F~800F, but I haven't a clue about its oxidation, leaching, etc characteristics. SS430 Fe, <0.12% C, 16-18% Cr, <0.75% Ni, <1.0% Mn, <1.0% Si, <0.040% P, <0.030% S

 

Being straight up, I want to avoid Cr, Ni, Al, etc long-term. However, it's certainly a wire to play with in TC. I'm just having a hard time rationalizing Platinum wire because of its price. SS alloys in contrast appeal is it's cheap. Keep in mind, a Titanium coil will outlast the Atty itself... So price!?[/QUOTE] I just can't get over the flavor difference with SS vs titanium. I just built a Ti1/KA1 clapton dual coil and it just tastes...funny. I only asked about SS430 because it's popular on that Unkamen site that everybody talks about. Also (and this I don't understand) on the site it lists its 430 as "nickel-free". Doesn't all SS have nickel in it?? It wouldn't be SS430 anymore without I would think.

[Jaquith]

jj6404 said:

 I just can't get over the flavor difference with SS vs titanium. I just built a Ti1/KA1 clapton dual coil and it just tastes...funny. I only asked about SS430 because it's popular on that Unkamen site that everybody talks about. Also (and this I don't understand) on the site it lists its 430 as "nickel-free". Doesn't all SS have nickel in it?? It wouldn't be SS430 anymore without I would think.

SS430 .. I listed the composition, it has less than 1% Nickel and has about 20% Chromium. As far as Titanium having a taste, absolutely not, it's a tasteless & odorless metal assuming you have cleaned Grade 1. Kanthal is especially on a Clapton is more than likely your culprit, I'd imagine your fingers had nice black streaks .. so I'd clean your coil .. soak in alcohol, clean with a brush, soak in water and then allow to dry. 

BTW I clean all of my wire with 91% Isopropyl alcohol before wrapping the coils, clean as stated above, and then low wattage pulse (dark orange; 10W single / 20W dual). The problem is in the processing especially polished wire gets machine oil and metal dust embedded into the wire. 

Here's a good link with the composition of various SS grades - http://www.stainlesssales.com/stainless-steel-grades.html

[Jalcide]

jj6404 said:

I just built and tried a Titanium/Kanthal Clapton build for the first time since I've been vaping strictly titanium and/or SS for weeks. I thought it tasted a little funny and wondered if it just needed to be broken in. Might it be that iron that I taste??

I suspect so, but haven't seen any science to back up the notion.

I know that our taste receptors do pick up on iron flavor. Some people like the taste of iron in well water. It can give it a "sweet" taste.

I have a hunch that may be why people like the "taste" of Kanthal.

What I don't understand is how wire that is not supposed to be leaching, decomposing or otherwise vaporizing can impart taste. The only studies I've seen mentioned seemed to imply the amount of material given off is nearly nonexistent.

Kanthal is the only wire I seem to detect any taste. Nickel is tasteless to me.

[jj6404]

Jaquith said:

[QUOTE=jj6404] I just can't get over the flavor difference with SS vs titanium. I just built a Ti1/KA1 clapton dual coil and it just tastes...funny. I only asked about SS430 because it's popular on that Unkamen site that everybody talks about. Also (and this I don't understand) on the site it lists its 430 as "nickel-free". Doesn't all SS have nickel in it?? It wouldn't be SS430 anymore without I would think.

SS430 .. I listed the composition, it has less than 1% Nickel and has about 20% Chromium. As far as Titanium having a taste, absolutely not, it's a tasteless & odorless metal assuming you have cleaned Grade 1. Kanthal is especially on a Clapton is more than likely your culprit, I'd imagine your fingers had nice black streaks .. so I'd clean your coil .. soak in alcohol, clean with a brush, soak in water and then allow to dry. 

BTW I clean all of my wire with 91% Isopropyl alcohol before wrapping the coils, clean as stated above, and then low wattage pulse (dark orange; 10W single / 20W dual). The problem is in the processing especially polished wire gets machine oil and metal dust embedded into the wire. 

Here's a good link with the composition of various SS grades - http://www.stainlesssales.com/stainless-steel-grades.html[/QUOTE]

I only have 70% alcohol and I do use it to clean the titanium and I tried to clean the kanthal but I ended up kinking it up by messing with it off the spool. When I wrap claptons I feed the wire directly off the spool. I use my fingers and thumb to hold the wrapping wire when I do it and everytime afterwards there are black streaks on my fingers. I figured I'd wiped off most of the dirt/oil with my fingers but I guess I didn't. 

When you say you low wattage pulse, do you do that with titanium? even spaced coils?

[Jaquith]

Oh trust me I completely understand what you're saying about the Kanthal. What works for me is unspooling about 10' (3 M) and wipe from one end and in one direction then respool. 70% should be fine, the alcohol helps disolve and clean the 'gunk.' Yep, I carefully dry burn my Titanium spaced coils, keep it 'dark orange' and clean with a soft brush (I use an old clean toothbrush). Done carefully it will perfectly clean the coiling and not form any TiO2 white deposits.

[jj6404]

Ah. So do you think I should continue to use the build I already made and eventually the "gunk" may burn off? Or should I just ditch it?

[Jaquith]

jj6404 said:

Ah. So do you think I should continue to use the build I already made and eventually the "gunk" may burn off? Or should I just ditch it?

I'd just clean it, take the deck off the Atty and soak it, rinse and brush, repeat then dry burn on low. Making a Clapton is a pain. 

[jj6404]

Maybe I should be talking to you more about getting my titanium builds tasting and working great than messing with SS too much lol. Do you just use the Steam Engine Ti1 default? Where do you get your Ti wire? Do you do contact coils at all?

[Jaquith]

LOL about the only quasi accurate CSV is their Titanium Grade 1 profile. I use Titan Wires and I'd recommend 24 (25 gauge actual after polishing), and yep I space them all. Probably not as much as you might think. Here's an example of one that was totally gunked up but I cleaned by 20W, dual, and rinsed under water with a toothbrush http://i.imgur.com/8WKpCNHh.jpg Stainless Steel is a pain, I'm about done with it, and it's soooo much easier having 1 TC wire to deal with. Titan Wires http://titanwires.com/titanium-wire works great on all my Titanium Mods.

[jj6404]

Jaquith said:

LOL about the only quasi accurate CSV is their Titanium Grade 1 profile. I use Titan Wires and I'd recommend 24 (25 gauge actual after polishing), and yep I space them all. Probably not as much as you might think. Here's an example of one that was totally gunked up but I cleaned by 20W, dual, and rinsed under water with a toothbrush http://i.imgur.com/8WKpCNHh.jpg Stainless Steel is a pain, I'm about done with it, and it's soooo much easier having 1 TC wire to deal with. Titan Wires http://titanwires.com/titanium-wire works great on all my Titanium Mods.

Idk. I can't get over the taste with SS. It's probably the closest I've got to kanthal/nichrome fused claptons, which was my go to build for a long time before venturing into TC. Though I am playing around with my settings a lot using your CSVs. Thanks again btw, very helpful. I haven't found my sweet spot yet. I dance around 540-570 and 55-65 watts on your V4 and V3 with an 80 watt preheat/0.75 sec/3 punch. No dry hits at all, just not hitting that sharp dense mentholated flavor bite that I like yet. I got one build spaced with that UD 24g 316L and one build contact with the same number of wraps (10) dual coil. They taste about the same but with the contact build I get a turbulent airflow vape for some reason in my El Cabron. I know this is most probably due to my coil height/placement but I feel like it's almost pulsing like a Snow Wolf or something...

BTW my Ti builds look very different from yours. Not the wraps, mine are spaced just about the same, but the color. I don't dry-burn mine like yours, but mine is more of a lighter grey color. Like I mentioned previously I've only got experience with Lightning Vapes Ti 1. It comes light grey and then I wipe it down with that 70 Isopropyl Alcohol, wrap it, wick it, vape it.

[Jaquith]

The only difference in the Titanium is rough vs polished. As I mentioned, I use 24 gauge Titanium. I think the gauge has more to do with the 'experience' .. I know I prefer 26 gauge Ni200 over 28 or 30, but I've done twisted and Clapton Ni200. I have some sweet Titanium / Kanthal Clapton's. Part of the flavor added notes is from mixing wire types in Twisted, Clapton's, etc avoiding 'monotone' temperatures. I'm not saying SS is garbage, I'm saying it's jumpy, difficult to properly TC, and because of the apparent alloy (foundry) differences one SS316L is not the same as another. In contrast Titanium has a steeper TCR and is both much easier to TC accurately and universally there's only one Titanium Grade 1 vs at least 4 alloy variants of SS316L not to mention multiple standardizations. China uses GB not SAE standards.

[jj6404]

Jaquith said:

The only difference in the Titanium is rough vs polished. As I mentioned, I use 24 gauge Titanium. I think the gauge has more to do with the 'experience' .. I know I prefer 26 gauge Ni200 over 28 or 30, but I've done twisted and Clapton Ni200. I have some sweet Titanium / Kanthal Clapton's. Part of the flavor added notes is from mixing wire types in Twisted, Clapton's, etc avoiding 'monotone' temperatures. I'm not saying SS is garbage, I'm saying it's jumpy, difficult to properly TC, and because of the apparent alloy (foundry) differences one SS316L is not the same as another. In contrast Titanium has a steeper TCR and is both much easier to TC accurately and universally there's only one Titanium Grade 1 vs at least 4 alloy variants of SS316L not to mention multiple standardizations. China uses GB not SAE standards.

You said as you mentioned you use 24 gauge Titanium. I use 24 gauge Titanium as well. So is your titanium polished or rough? Is there any advantage in flavor for one vs. the other?

I know this isn't the right thread for this but could you give me any tips on twisting/claptoning titanium builds to get best flavor and TC accuracy/stability?

And for a thread-related question: where do you get your SS? If there is a better and cheaper source than vapordna where I get my UD SS316L I'd very much like to know. Thanks Dave! (It is dave, right?)

[Jaquith]

I have both the rough and polished, as far as taste IMHO they're the same. The polished loses 1 gauge, so 24 is actually 25; the polished is easier to clean. LMAO, I guess the unpolished holds flavor like a good old iron pan. It's 6 of 1, half a dozen to another .. neither is really better. The polished is typically to dirtiest from powdered Ti and machine oil. I clean them both. The most efficient Titanium / Kanthal Clapton's are 24 gauge Titanium with 34 gauge Kanthal http://i.imgur.com/hLJLgrEh.jpg but I've used 30 gauge which is also very nice, it depends upon the juice. Steam Engine allows for the mix and Clapton's, but you know me I edit my own based upon a Titanium Grade 1 CSV. Tomorrow I'll post it, CSV file, I'm on my phone. Edit .. I used some Amazon SS316L, UD SS316L, and then some FastTech SS316L which while off actually works better than UD's. I also purchased some cheap Titanium Grade 1 from FastTech which was dead on in TC not to mention a fraction of the price. SS3XXX wire, all of it should be dirt cheap!!! Yep it is I David. :-)

[jj6404]

Jaquith said:

I have both the rough and polished, as far as taste IMHO they're the same. The polished loses 1 gauge, so 24 is actually 25; the polished is easier to clean. LMAO, I guess the unpolished holds flavor like a good old iron pan. It's 6 of 1, half a dozen to another .. neither is really better. The polished is typically to dirtiest from powdered Ti and machine oil. I clean them both. The most efficient Titanium / Kanthal Clapton's are 24 gauge Titanium with 34 gauge Kanthal http://i.imgur.com/hLJLgrEh.jpg but I've used 30 gauge which is also very nice, it depends upon the juice. Steam Engine allows for the mix and Clapton's, but you know me I edit my own based upon a Titanium Grade 1 CSV. Tomorrow I'll post it, CSV file, I'm on my phone. Edit .. I used some Amazon SS316L, UD SS316L, and then some FastTech SS316L which while off actually works better than UD's. I also purchased some cheap Titanium Grade 1 from FastTech which was dead on in TC not to mention a fraction of the price. SS3XXX wire, all of it should be dirt cheap!!! Yep it is I David. :-)

Awesome. Thanks for all the continued info. So the only small gauge Kanthal I have is 36 gauge. The problem that I have with ordering wire from FT (besides the obvious shipping time) is that you search one thing and get 20 results. How will I know exactly what the good one you got is? Or even if I order the same thing if I will get the same thing? I fear I'll get some crappy Chinese stuff passing off as 316L. You said yourself they use different standards. I love Amazon, maybe I'll look there.

Do your Ti/Ka claptons provide the best flavor from titanium for you?(versus twisted, regular spaced, contact)

[Jaquith]

Yeah I hear you about FT, but lol UD SS316L is Chinese; this is the wire I received but the UD and this is no doubt different https://m.fasttech.com/products/0/10016603/3361603-316l-stainless-steel-heating-wire-for-rebuildable The only Twisted I've done is 30/30 and 28/28 Ni200 / Kanthal. It makes builds like this possible http://m.imgur.com/uYUEwBo,2j2Zew3,afoLKoP I've also done Ni200 / Kanthal Clapton's http://i.imgur.com/PLofAnJh.jpg Sorry, I'm not trying to do a show and tell. If you have Ejuice that has different notes at lower temperatures that are different at higher then indeed Clapton's will bring both together for better or worse, generally better .. your battery / LiPo will remind you.

[jj6404]

Jaquith said:

Yeah I hear you about FT, but lol UD SS316L is Chinese; this is the wire I received but the UD and this is no doubt different https://m.fasttech.com/products/0/10016603/3361603-316l-stainless-steel-heating-wire-for-rebuildable The only Twisted I've done is 30/30 and 28/28 Ni200 / Kanthal. It makes builds like this possible http://m.imgur.com/uYUEwBo,2j2Zew3,afoLKoP I've also done Ni200 / Kanthal Clapton's http://i.imgur.com/PLofAnJh.jpg Sorry, I'm not trying to do a show and tell. If you have Ejuice that has different notes at lower temperatures that are different at higher then indeed Clapton's will bring both together for better or worse, generally better .. your battery / LiPo will remind you.

I know UD is Chinese. I was hoping you would know a US source of good SS that was cheaper than vapordna. Do you think twisting Ti and Kanthal would still yield decent temp control accuracy/stability? What do you mean my lipo will remind me? Claptons would take more battery life I assume?

[Jaquith]

I just meant Clapton's require a fair amount of power and drain any battery quickly. The USA wire I purchased from Amazon is Beadalon wire. The stability I'm getting with Titanium / Kanthal is very good but I had to adjust the CSV file. Phil is using what appears to be welding wire, guessing, a Weldcote or Harris MIG spool and yeah in 'bulk' it's cheap; aka RE316L. Keep in mind, I think a lot of this 316L/317L, probably MIG, is Chinese and they don't make this wire for our purpose of vaping and inhalation. Here's something to read http://m.lincolnelectric.com/en-us/support/welding-how-to/Pages/mig-wire-selection-detail.aspx The more I know the less I trust especially when I see distinct TCR variations. I wouldn't be surprised even if (most) Titanium Grade 1 has its origins in China. I'm for more testing and verifications.

[jj6404]

Jaquith said:

[QUOTE=jj6404]Ah. So do you think I should continue to use the build I already made and eventually the "gunk" may burn off? Or should I just ditch it?

I'd just clean it, take the deck off the Atty and soak it, rinse and brush, repeat then dry burn on low. Making a Clapton is a pain. [/QUOTE]

So I took the cotton out, soaked my deck in alcohol for like 10 min, then rinsed it under water. Then I fiddled with it with my screwdriver to get out hot spots (it's ever so slightly spaced) and pulsed it at 20W until it glowed a few times dull orange in the center of both coils. I made a CSV with the Wire Wizard on Steam Engine and it seems to be working fine. The flavor so far is pretty clean but not as dense and juicy as I expect yet from a clapton.

So what I don't like about this is that since the Ti is wrapped in KA1, I can't see the color of the Ti wire. I'm worried (like always) that I might have formed Titanium oxide because I let it glow orange, not bright orange, but orange. Do you think I would taste it if there was ti oxide?

[Jaquith]

No you're not tasting Ti02 and the natural formation Type (IV) with large particulates isn't the 'harmful' type anyway. Harmful isn't the food grade, natural, either aka in the recent past on your donuts. Instead the harmful type TiO2 is produced commercially and in a heavily acidic bath. As far as Clapton's vs Clapton's .. Ti/Ka vs what in comparison (wire & gauges)? Glad to hear you found a CSV that's working.

[jj6404]

Jaquith said:

No you're not tasting Ti02 and the natural formation Type (IV) with large particulates isn't the 'harmful' type anyway. Harmful isn't the food grade, natural, either aka in the recent past on your donuts. Instead the harmful type TiO2 is produced commercially and in a heavily acidic bath. As far as Clapton's vs Clapton's .. Ti/Ka vs what in comparison (wire & gauges)? Glad to hear you found a CSV that's working.

Well I guess what I'm comparing the taste to is what claptons I've vaped before: 26gN80/36gKA1. These are 24gTi1/36gKA1. But its been so long since I vaped those N80/KA1 claptons that its not a fair comparison. Plus I'm more familiar with vaping N80/KA1 fused claptons, 26gN80/36gKA1 to be exact. I guess I was hoping the flavor would be similar to that though I'm not saying it is bad at all.

[Jaquith]

The differences in coiling are going to be wire surface area, power, temperature and any 'coloring' from the wire itself ( metallic taste ). That's assuming a verbatim Atty, setup and juice. My insanity today is looking at pure Platinum ($150 / foot 0.5 mm). Even Steam Engine doesn't have data. I know the ML Class has a profile which is why I'm thinking about it. Platinum doesn't oxidize, its melting temperature is simular to Titanium, noble metal .. and wow expensive. I mentioned it once in this post, but I'm curious if you've considered it?