tomk Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 my mistake your right, i left the soft cut off at 3.09 to help make up for the voltage drop so common in Li-Ions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaquith Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 Depending upon the voltage drop, sag, 3.09 translates to a considerably higher actuall / no load voltage. LG tested the batteries to the 2.5V @10A & 20A. You're not the only one I've ran across doing that, I found someone posting an LG HG2 from Germany. Tomorrow, I'll post. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomk Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 ty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Vapin_Architect Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 David what did you get for the cutoff on the 25rs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Vapin_Architect Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 I got 2.5v and wanted to see if you if this is correct thanks!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaquith Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 Samsung 25R's (cyan) Nominal 3.6V, 2500 mAh, 2.5V Cut-off. Specs http://www.powerstream.com/p/INR18650-25R-datasheet.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmclaurin Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 Jaquith said:I've got to point something out here, just an observation, everyone seems to be using the standard LiPo Cut-Off (3.09 - 3.XX V) .. while I'm certain it works, most 18650's have a Cut-Off of 2.5~2.6V (refer to you battery's full specs). Example, under NO LOAD my low 18650 might be 3.5V but under LOAD 2.5~2.8V. Therefore, all of these posted TXT or CSV Battery files for 18650's as best as I understand batteries, are too high (off) and a shortened use cycle. Please enlighten me if I'm wrong here, but AFAIK I'm correct. It kinda defeats using a 3,000 mAh battery...Thanks!Nothing wrong, per se, with lowering the LVC. IIRC, the DNA 200 supports LVC's down to 2.8v. The default value of 3.09v is a compromise between runtime and cycle life. Lower values will give slightly more runtime at the cost of cycle life. Whether that trade-off is worth it is up to you. I will point out, however, that once you reach the ~3.0-3.1v range (and, yes, I'm talking about voltage under load), lithium-based cells have already depleted most of their capacity, especially at the relatively high discharge rates that are typical in vaping. You can see this in Samsung's own discharge profile curves that you posted. Looking at the dark green (10A discharge) curve, at 3.1v the cell has given about 2.3Ah. If you follow that curve to the 2.8v point (which I believe is the lowest the DNA 200 supports), the cell has given about 2.5Ah. So by lowering your LVC from 3.1v to 2.8v you've gained about 200mAh of capacity (roughly a 9% increase). That's not an insignificant increase in capacity. For my vaping style, that would probably net me an additional ~50 puffs or so on a 3S configuration. But it would stress the cells a good bit to do this, which would have at least two drawbacks: (i) reduced cycle life and (ii) quicker reduction in capacity over the life of the cell. So, in the long run, I'm not sure it's all that advantageous to go much lower than the default 3.09v LVC. Again, whether the trade-off is worth it is entirely up to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaquith Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 Use whatever you want, the 3.09V and 11.1V is the Evolv tested spec from FullyMax FB900HP-3S a LiPo battery, and not any 18650 in mind. Search FB900HP-3S cutoff voltage...it's an error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmclaurin Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 Not sure how to interpret your response. I was attempting to respond to your question. Sorry I wasted my time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaquith Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 LG HG2 Battery Profile (CSV) - http://www.filedropper.com/3slghg2batteryprofileI ran the tests twice using all of the correct LG HG2 values; Capacity 3000 mAh, Nominal Voltage 3*3.6V=10.8V, and the correct 2.5V Cut-off. Both tests were rather close the 28.72 Wh vs the theoretical 32.4 Wh was a little disappointing, and even 31.86 Wh (2950*10.8) would have been perhaps expected.The batteries are all new and married; initial charge, full discharge, recharged and then tested. The Default 3S (3 cell) are from Evolv's FullyMax FB900HP-3S: Capacity 900 mAh, Nominal Voltage 3*3.7V 11.1, and a 3.0V Cut-off. Specs - http://www.asaseletricas.com.br/loja/images/Data%20sheet%20for%20A0-FB900HP-1S%2030C.pdfIt's a simple process, Input 3 numbers reverent to the specs of your batteries, and run the test .. then Save to your device. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VapingBad Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 The default is just for a typical LiPo not for the Fullymax and I don't think there is any point setting the soft cut-off to 2.5 V when the hard cut-off is 2.85 V, unless it's changed since July https://forum.evolvapor.com/topic/67884-topic/?do=findComment&comment=911120 I would probably set it low for most IMR 18650s and can't understand where these cut off values over 3.1 V are coming from, unless there know there is a problem with a particular battery that some reseller has used and introduced it. But I would run the analyser to see the curve before making my mind up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaquith Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 VapingBad said:The default is just for a typical LiPo not for the Fullymax and I don't think there is any point setting the soft cut-off to 2.5 V when the hard cut-off is 2.85 V, unless it's changed since July https://forum.evolvapor.com/topic/67884-topic/?do=findComment&comment=911120 I would probably set it low for most IMR 18650s and can't understand where these cut off values over 3.1 V are coming from, unless there know there is a problem with a particular battery that some reseller has used and introduced it. But I would run the analyser to see the curve before making my mind up.My 0% was 3.02V not the 3.1V that everyone else is getting .. because I did not use the 3.09V Default value. Oh yeah, the Default Battery Discharge certainly is the Fullymax FB900HP-3S Evolv sells here - http://www.evolvapor.com/dna200.phpEvolv needs to allow <3.0V Cut-off's to accommodate 18650 cells, and no not all LiPo's are the same (Capacity, Nominal Voltage, or Cut-Off). Using made-up numbers simply gives you a 'garbage-in garbage-out' erroneous charging and discharging not to mention a 'meter' that is off and frankly may never see a eg 100% charged.I'm using my values. I do understand the cut-off of 3.0V vs battery's 2.5V reduces the (mAh) potential of the 18650's with a sub-3V cut-off's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VapingBad Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 I don't understand why the text in red on your reply Jaquith, I did not comment on that at all and was not arguing with you. You are wrong about the curve being specific to the Fullymax and the curve having anything at all to do with a finite capacity either in Wh or mAh or the cut-off they are separate settings. IIRC they translate the default curve from the fullymax to the capacity entered in Escribe because it is representative of 3S LiPos the class of battery the board was developed to use. It is just a default curve, you can use the analyser to creat one that is more accurate for your batteries and mod makers should all be doing this. As I posted they do support lower than 3 V cut-off , the last time I saw Evolv post it it was 2.85 v and I even posted the link for you.You may have a point about a lower hard cut-off benefiting some 18650 users, but I don't think Evolv will change it because of possible problems if used incorrectly, they rejected supporting 4.3 V max LiPo charge for that reason and I think they were right to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaquith Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 It's on red because Evolv has it set to a minimum of 3.0V obviously, not 2.85V (won't work) or 3.1V as you've been arguing all this time with me. Listen, I want my batteries to behave as they should and for a Meter and or percentage to be as accurate as possible. The Default LiPo battery looks dead on to a FullyMax, the data and in particular the discharge curve matches up. The only value that I want is the Mod's resistance all the other information is easy to obtain and can certainly can vary where different batteries are being used; different battery profiles and different Mod temperatures from the different batteries. Having all the data sets programmed only makes sense if there are no variables eg different batteries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VapingBad Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 You do like to argue don't you jaquith, I am not Evolv and have no connection with them. If you bother to look at the link I posted you will see that Evolv have stated the hard cut-off is 2.85 V and I have not said anywhere that it is 3.1 V as far as I can recall.Yes the default battery curve is dead on for a Fullymax as it is a representative LiPo curve so a ideal default setting and can see no reason to complain about that. LiPos are the battery this is designed for, the most common and are far more similar than 18650s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaquith Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 2.85V doesn't work or it wasn't transfered to the current firmware. I've run these same tests on several LiPo's 900 mAh, 1300, and 2000 .. plus a LiFePO4 and they're all different. Each has their own cells with different discharging. Obviously, the 3S is for LiPo's but the 2S seems to have 18650's in mind .. so the 3S needs a revamped firmware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VapingBad Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Could part of that just be that LiPos have no charge left below 3 V? Did you run battery analyser to determin they were not going below 3V? I have not done the tests, but would expect some 18650s and maybe LiFePos (not sure not used them) to go down that far. Maybe they did change the 2.85 V.When the feature request was made for 2S it was implemented very quickly and I really can't see that there would have been separate algorithms for the cell limits. It would not be the way they would do things, they don't have a different mode for temp sensing and non-temp sensing and 2S vs 3S would make far less sense. I am not saying you are not seeing different results, just that I don't think it is firmware causing it, I suppose there could be some different default limits loaded but doubt it. The battery meter can only be so accurate anyway as they are chemical devices that degrade over time and are affected by temperature and even dirty or corded contacts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaquith Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 VapingBad said:Could part of that just be that LiPos have no charge left below 3 V? Did you run battery analyser to determin they were not going below 3V? I have not done the tests, but would expect some 18650s and maybe LiFePos (not sure not used them) to go down that far. Maybe they did change the 2.85 V.When the feature request was made for 2S it was implemented very quickly and I really can't see that there would have been separate algorithms for the cell limits.....I can only tell you what I see and the 18650's in series have a markedly different power drop-off. I'm not a battery expert but I'm observant. The 3.0V needs to be lowered to 2.5V~2.6V to accommodate 18650's .. they're clearly different drop-off's. Not to mention not every LiPo has the same specs nor cells. IDK allow an Expert mode to exceed especially lower limits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmclaurin Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 I don't know why I'm bothering replying, but the DNA 200 considers a battery "empty" when it can no longer sustain a 5W discharge, and it will lower the power to draw every bit of capacity down to that limit. Doesn't matter how low you set the LVC if you're hitting that limit. And, btw, the voltages in eScribe's .csv files are resting voltage, not under load. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaquith Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 To all, Reuleaux just posted their 'official' standardized settings http://www.wismec.com/product/reuleaux-dna200NOTE: It will completely erase all of your settings if you Upload to device. If your Mod is setup how you like it then I'd probably use these settings plus the appropriate Battery Analyzer settings; theirs is some generic 3x18650's. At the minimum I would back yours up: File / Save .. name it.Official Battery and Case Analyzer numbers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donny2nd Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Jaquith said:I looked at the file, and there is no 2.6V or 2.8V .. just the 3.09V LiPo default. I ran the Samsung 25R's and tomorrow I'll run the LG HG2 (3.6V Nominal, 3000mAh, 2.5V Cut-off) and post the CSV. I've read the 2950 mAh, etc, etc .. I'm running the batteries to spec; ref http://keeppower.com.ua/download/2015-06/datasheet-LG_INR18650HG2-1.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donny2nd Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Donny2nd said:[QUOTE=Jaquith]I looked at the file, and there is no 2.6V or 2.8V .. just the 3.09V LiPo default. I ran the Samsung 25R's and tomorrow I'll run the LG HG2 (3.6V Nominal, 3000mAh, 2.5V Cut-off) and post the CSV. I've read the 2950 mAh, etc, etc .. I'm running the batteries to spec; ref http://keeppower.com.ua/download/2015-06/datasheet-LG_INR18650HG2-1.pdf[/QUOTE] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WickedTLC Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 Under Mod section for LG HG2 battery users, use Watt-Hour Calculator, I just input 3000mah and 10.8v(3.6 times 3). It will come out to be 32.4wh. I've also selected Charging Mode into Maximize Recharges. For discharge profile and more accurate reading of battery life display I've posted a picture.100% - 4.2v95% - 4.15v90% - 4.10v85% - 4.05v80% - 4.00v75% - 3.95v70% - 3.90v65% - 3.85v60% - 3.80v55% - 3.75v50% - 3.70v45% - 3.65v40% - 3.60v35% - 3.55v30% - 3.50v25% - 3.45v20% - 3.40v15% - 3.35v10% - 3.30v5% - 3.25v0% - 3.20vI've set Cell Soft Cutoff to 3.2v. With this discharge profile my battery goes down by 1 tiny little square boxes at a time on the Wismec Reuleaux display, and if I wanted to or choose to recharge them at the safest volt 3.5-3.6 for max battery life cycle, I would take them out around 1/3 of battery life being displayed. With this, I would have a choice to know when its going to hit under 3.5v and that I am making a small sacrifice in in terms of max life cycle of my LG HG2 battery.Please correct me if i've made an mistake with this set up. Thank you guys. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jolley Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 Has someone tested the wismec reuleaux dna200? Can it reach 200w? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DNA Papst Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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